Black All Year - An Antiracist Discussion Part 1

Is the idea of a "pure British lineage" nothing more than a myth? Join us for an eye-opening conversation as (in a release of an episode from 2022) I, Steph Edusei, am joined by Risaria Langley, and explore the complex layers of race and racism in the UK. Guided by Professor Ibram X. Kendi's Anti-racist deck, we share personal stories and insights rooted in our shared Geordie heritage from North East England. Risaria recalls a defining moment from her childhood, while I reflect on how Brexit has acted as a catalyst, revealing the entrenched racism within our society.

We tackle the contentious notion of British identity and its implications in today's multicultural landscape. What does it mean to be "indigenous British"? Through our own experiences, we highlight the fluidity of cultural and ethnic backgrounds, emphasizing the frustration of being questioned about one's origins. Our discussion underscores the vital role of recognizing and valuing the contributions of immigrants and their descendants, showing how personal relationships can break down superficial barriers and foster inclusivity.

Can saying "I don't see color" actually do more harm than good? We unpack this loaded phrase and its implications, arguing for the necessity of acknowledging racial and cultural differences to truly understand and appreciate each other. Through heartfelt anecdotes, we discuss why it's essential to recognise these differences and the discomfort caused when they are dismissed. Reflecting on Maya Angelou's wise words, "Do the best that you can until you know better and then, when you know better, do better," we stress the importance of continual growth and humility. 

Don't miss this candid and thought-provoking dialogue—and tune in next week for part two. 

Be sure to subscribe and leave a review to help others find this important conversation.

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Original music by Wayne C McDonald, #ActorSlashDJ
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Chapters

• 0:09 Conversations on Race and Racism
• 9:12 Perceptions of British Identity and Race
• 12:56 Acknowledging Differences in Racial Conversations
• 21:25 Learning and Growing Through Conversations

Transcript

[Steph Edusei] (0:09 - 2:03)

Hi everyone and welcome to Black All Year. I'm Steph Edusei and I am a leader, speaker, coach and the creator and host of this podcast. Now this week I'm going to do something a little bit different.

I'm going to bring you a podcast that was first released about 18 months ago. Talking about race and racism and having anti-racist conversations is vital if we're going to see lasting and meaningful change but conversations on race can be difficult for many, particularly when they are of different ethnicities. 

Professor Ibram X Kendi is an American author, anti-racist activist and founding director of the Boston University Centre for Anti-Racist Research and he's a historian of race and discriminatory policy in America. As well as writing a number of books including How to Be Anti-Racist and How to Raise an Anti-Racist, he's created a tool to help people talk about race, the Anti-Racist Deck. I was joined by Risaria Langley, a friend, author, performer and producer in conversation prompted by the cards in the Anti-Racist Deck.

Neither of us are experts in the subject of race however this was an honest and wide-ranging dialogue between two people who feel safe with each other. I hope you enjoy it. So when I thought about doing this for the first time, Risaria was the first person that I thought I wanted to talk to and what we're planning to do is I have discovered the Anti-Racist Deck which is produced by Ibram Kendi who is also a writer and really it's a set of cards that are there as conversation starters about race and ethnicity and racism and what we've done is we've picked a few we're just going to see where the conversation takes us and welcome Risaria.

[Risaria Langley] (2:03 - 2:16)

Thank you, delighted to be here and I would put friend at the front of that list because that is the reason I feel comfortable to have this conversation with you.

[Steph Edusei] (2:17 - 2:32)

And I think it's probably a good idea that I just explain that whilst I am a Black woman, mixed heritage, you are a white woman but we both come from the same part of the world, don't we? So, we both come from North East England and both Geordies really, aren't we?

[Risaria Langley] (2:32 - 2:35)

Yeah, we are both Geordies at heart.

[Steph Edusei] (2:35 - 3:00)

So, we do have quite a lot of cultural heritage in common as well as the differences that we have as well so it'll be interesting to see what comes out when we're having these conversations. So, shall we crack on? So, the first card that we've picked to talk about is why is talking about race important and in particular why now?

So, I'm interested Risaria in kind of your thoughts on that.

[Risaria Langley] (3:00 - 3:43)

For me I was shocked with Brexit because I always felt I'm a world citizen and the minimum I felt was a European because I was in Germany for some time and I felt very European and I didn't really get that people wanted to separate themselves off again and since we've become friends and you have been more open about your feelings in certain situations it's made me sort of like tilt my head to one side and go oh I hadn't seen it like that.

[Steph Edusei] (3:44 - 3:44)

Yeah.

[Risaria Langley] (3:44 - 5:01)

Because it's sometimes it's seeing things through another person's eyes and it reminded me of the first time I became aware of race was I was about 14, 15 and we'd moved to a new house and it was a brand new housing estate, all new builds and there was a knock at the door and someone came with a petition and they wanted my father to sign the petition because they were trying to prevent a Black family moving in and they were even suggesting buying out the house and I remember being standing there just really shocked and puzzled and I was stunned when my dad took the petition and he ripped the whole thing up. Good for him. Yeah, and I thought thank goodness for that because for that moment you know when he said give me that here.

You thought he was going to sign. I thought he was going to sign oh my god and he was he was the first one to go around and call on them and invite them round and it was just oh my goodness yeah, I found it stunning.

[Steph Edusei] (5:02 - 7:48)

Yeah I think it's interesting what you said about as I've become more more open and have shared more and I think that's that's credit to you and to the others that are in our kind of group because there's I've probably been through a bit of a transformation over the last few years about that and I would agree with you actually with Brexit because prior to Brexit I knew racism existed and I experienced it and it was it was kind of one of those things that you just kind of got on with because it was I was just so used to it it did just become well this is what I deal with and and you know you get on with it but Brexit to me really shocked me not so much because of the wanting to leave Europe but I didn't think that I didn't think there were enough people that would vote to leave so I was quite shocked by that but because of some of the reasons that people gave for it and it was very much about keeping Black people out now apart from the fact that made no sense whatsoever I mean why stop Spanish or French or German people because you want to keep Black and and the people said “oh you know there's too many Indians here we need to keep them out” and “if you look at the streets full of Africans” and and it was like do you realize where Europe is so there was that kind of this doesn't make sense. But what I saw literally well the day after the vote when we knew what the result was was instantly, I got more abuse more racist abuse I had people shouting at me in the street. 

Now that hadn't happened for 20 years and I think what it did in this country was Brexit legitimized the racism and it emboldened the racist so I think what we've had since that vote which was what 2016 or something that was ages ago is it's got worse because people have felt that the Brexit vote has given them permission to behave in that way and so I think having that that and then the safety of being able to talk with the group of women that we have has meant that as I've been on this journey about I need to get more vocal about this and I need to do something about it I've felt safe with you and talking about some of that um and that safety that that group creates and that you create is really important because if I didn't feel safe I would shut up 90% of the time so for me I think it's important because we're now in a I almost feel like we're we're back in what it was like in the 80s where we have to speak out because this is becoming commonplace that kind of racism is becoming commonplace but what we're also able to do is to to highlight the impact of the more structural racism and discrimination that perhaps it was harder to talk about back then. I remember

[Risaria Langley] (7:48 - 9:14)

being shocked by a woman at the bus stop just after the vote had come out and she started the conversation by saying how great it was and she'd voted to leave and she was sort of really thought it was a great thing and I said gosh I don't and I said I don't know about you but I said you certainly look as though you've got Viking and border reaver blood in you and I said I know I have and if we go way back the reavers these lands were called the debatable lands because there was always this fraction between Scotland and England yeah and so it was passing back and forth and the Vikings you know the stories of the Vikings certainly our version of them is of rape and pillage but again that is our version in this island and I think until we accept I love Eddie Izzard's term this mongrel nation we are mongrels and mongrels are very lovable they're often the nicest of breeds and it's remembering that mongrel may not sound a very nice term but it produces some beautiful beautiful characteristics and offspring yeah yeah and I find it interesting

[Steph Edusei] (9:14 - 11:18)

because people talk about in you know the indigenous British and it just makes me laugh whenever anybody uses that term because as you say what on earth is an indigenous British person Britain didn't exist it you know it's a collection of tribes and peoples and we've had immigration and kind of cross-breeding for want of a better term for hundreds and hundreds of years so this idea of the indigenous British person as being this pure blood is an absolute nonsense but the differences I suppose between me and you is whilst you know that you are made up of a number of different countries and backgrounds and things most people would look at you and say well you're an indigenous Brit because you're a white woman for me my difference is kind of written all over my face literally so and people will not look at me and say she's British and I think the fact that that people like me get the question of where are you from all the time and then when I say Newcastle they say yes but originally and if somebody's saying I'm really interested in what your ethnic makeup is because I'm that's I'm really fascinated by that type thing I love to talk about my Geordie heritage and my Ashanti heritage I love it because they're both really rich cultural backgrounds but if you're just doing it so that you can say are you really British or are you an immigrant well you know what I'm the daughter of an immigrant who has given so much to this country who worked here has paid taxes here has raised three children two of which worked in the public sector and have continued to contribute a lot to the country what is your point yeah it's a really it's just annoying it really is annoying that that becomes the thing that people want to define me by it's the do you belong here yeah for me I I've now become wary of asking

[Risaria Langley] (11:18 - 12:21)

that question whereas for me it was always about oh I'm interested in you and it isn't and I ask it of everyone yes I I sometimes hesitate because of this I don't want to be perceived as being racist whereas for me it's about interest in an individual for me it's not about the colour of your skin and in fact I remember once I was asked where my friend was when I was at a workshop he said you're Black friend and I couldn't I couldn't think who he meant and it was he had to give me much more description and then I said oh and I said her name and afterwards I said how could I forget you were Black and she said because you don't see that in me you know it's and it's not that she's she is very Black with afro hair but that isn't what hit strikes me about her

[Steph Edusei] (12:22 - 14:52)

I describe other things about her first and I think that's a that's a really challenging one because so I I know what you what you mean when you say actually that's not the first thing that you think of when you see that person and actually I I suspect that with me that's not the first thing you think of when you you think of me you probably don't think about the my ethnicity and my race and that's because you know me so actually you have a relationship with Steph the person not just an image of of Steph the Black woman so I think so I do understand that I think that the challenge that that a lot of Black people have is when people say I don't see colour and I don't think that's what you're saying no it's not yeah because when somebody says to me oh I don't see colour what they're saying is I don't see part of who you are because my colour has affected my life experiences and it helped shape who I am and my colour isn't just my colour it's my culture and it's my heritage and so often when people say oh I don't see colour and they think that's a really positive thing to me that's like saying oh Risaria I don't see that you're a woman or I don't see that you're a Geordie or and actually the thing that really annoys me about it is there's almost an inference of because I have had this where people will say I don't see you as a Black woman I see you just like me and what that to me is saying is that there's something different and wrong about Black but actually you're just like me and it's almost like I don't want to look at that difference because actually that's challenging I just want to pretend that doesn't exist and and that we're all the same and we're not all the same you know you and I are both but we're not the same as women we're different and that's that's the that's the good thing about life it's the difference it's the you know I love learning from you about because you you've had the most amazing career and and experiences and things that I haven't had and can't ever imagine having and I really enjoy that about you and I enjoy your different perspectives on some things and it helps educate me and it helps me grow and helps challenge me and all that type of thing so to pretend that we're all the same just seems nonsensical to me I think.

[Risaria Langley] (14:53 - 15:50)

No and and what I love about finding out about people is that because I love everyone's uniqueness and this particular friend I I think of more as a poet because that's that's what she she does and when she was given her spiritual name we weren't contemplating what it was and she suddenly spurted water over the table and I said that's you gushing fountain because she she just sort of gushes that she's the most amazing amazing rap she doesn't just do rap but she does rap and she does poetry and if I was describing her ethnicity I'd say like she's British Caribbean but Black woman it was just like do I know a Black woman you know sort of it it felt so I'll never forget

[Steph Edusei] (15:50 - 17:07)

an experience I had many years ago because I was a student and one of the girls that I'm sharing a house with was her mother was talking to her friend and her friend's son was at the same well we were at the polytechnic that shows you how long ago it was and they were at the university so they'd arranged that we would meet her and I heard her on the phone to this this lad and obviously they hadn't met and he must have asked so how will we know you and she said oh well there's three of us and we've all got long brown hair and she kind of came off the phone and I said to her you didn't think to say that one of us was Black and she said well what you mean I said well that would have been far easier for us to for them to identify us if they'd say if you'd said there's three of us one of them's quite tall and one of us is Black that just differentiates and she went oh I thought that would be rude and I thought well why why would that be rude why would describing a characteristic of mine be rude and actually the fact that you thought it was rude is quite insulting in a way so yeah it's I think it's it is it's a really strange thing when we when we talk about how comfortable people are about describing other races and this this is

[Risaria Langley] (17:07 - 18:10)

this brings up something that my son has brought up with me because I studied law in the 70s so we were looking at racism and to me the definition of racism from the legal perspective was when you're bringing someone into you know when you're condemning or behaving or speaking in a way that is meant to be a slur or racially abusive to me it wasn't about being making a distinction and when I've said to my son things like oh my Hindu friend in Aberdeen and he said that's racist but I only have one Hindu friend in Aberdeen and to me that makes it distinctive and I only at the moment have one Geordie Ashanti friend but to me that isn't racist that's just being descriptive

[Steph Edusei] (18:11 - 20:16)

and I would agree with you I don't think that describing somebody by their characteristics is racist if the intent is just to differentiate them from your Jewish friends in Aberdeen for example or your so I wouldn't I think racism has to have a couple of factors so there has to be that that impact of prejudice and doing either making less of doing harm to withholding all of that kind of very negative stuff that goes around it but there also has to be a power thing in it as well so often you'll get people say when you say this about white people that's racist it may be prejudiced it's not racist to me there's a difference because actually in our society it is not people who are ethnically minoritized that have the power it's it's white people that have the power and therefore unless that power element is in there it's not racist like say it could be prejudiced so I may well hold prejudices against a whole host of people for various different things I hope well no I kind of know what biases I have and I deal with them and make sure that they don't impact on my behaviours but I'm not racist because I don't have that power to be racist and racist is tied up in society in laws in in power and I think there's some really good descriptors out there of what racism is so no I would agree I don't think you'd say oh my Hindu friend is is racist it goes back to that thing of people being sent overly sensitive of offending and what often I find happens is because people are too worried about offending they actually do something really racist as a result yes did you realize because you didn't just go and speak to that member of staff about their behaviour because you were worried that you could be seen as racist you've then escalated the issue and you've been really racist so well done that's it because

[Risaria Langley] (20:16 - 20:38)

the other thing is the only thing we can control is our emotions we can't control how anyone else will receive what we are putting out there so it's looking at our own intentions we can't I can't predict whether I will offend you it's just I need to look at the intention

[Steph Edusei] (20:38 - 22:30)

with which I say something yeah I would add to that that if you're if something you said did offend and and I made it clear that that had impacted negatively on me I think then there's a responsibility to then acknowledge that impact yes and change what you do in the future so it's not you don't beat yourself up because actually that wasn't your intention but you kind of go I'm really sorry that that's had that impact I didn't intend that but I won't do that again because that wasn't that wasn't what I wanted to happen and I think that's that's the one thing that that happens quite a lot is people say well I didn't intend that and therefore that excuses everything because that wasn't my intention so I think it's important that the two are balanced yes and it takes us back to this this quote is coming up so often for me now it's the Maya Angelou quote which is do the best that you can until you know better and then when you know better do better that's great to me that impact and intention is exactly that you know I I'm sure I've done it loads I was just saying to somebody yesterday I'm gonna have to have a lot of apologies to make because I've come from a position of ignorance about some things and I've done some stuff that will have had a negative impact on people now but now that I know better I hope I wouldn't do that again.

[Risaria Langley] 

Yes, yes

[Steph Edusei]

And that is where I'm going to pause my discussion with Risaria for now I hope you enjoyed listening to that as much as I enjoyed listening back to it there was much more and I'm going to share that with you in part two next week. 

I hope you've enjoyed that episode of Black all year it would be great if you could subscribe and review because not only will it make sure that you get the content but it will help other people to find it too. Take care