Black All Year
Black History Month plays a crucial role, but it's essential to acknowledge that the celebration of Black heritage and culture extends beyond just one month. It's a year-round commitment involving celebration, recognition, support, education, and advocacy. Hosting this podcast is Steph Edusei, a renowned leader, speaker, and coach. As an Ashanti-Geordie woman with mixed Ghanaian and English roots from the North East of England, she brings a unique perspective to the table.
Black All Year
Black All Year - Unravelling Internalised Oppression: A Deep Dive into Racial Identity and Resilience
In this transformative discussion with me, Steph Edusei, the remarkable Tina Simbo joins us to unravel the complex threads of internalised oppression that profoundly impact marginalised communities, particularly among Black populations. With Tina's wealth of experience in social justice and community work, we dissect the ways in which acceptance of negative stereotypes seep into the psyche, influencing thoughts, behaviours and societal expectations. Our exchange breaks down the historical context of racial terminology and its role—from the Haitian Revolution to the present day—in shaping perceptions and reinforcing racial hierarchies through education and media.
Within the nuanced tapestry of racial identity, we challenge common misconceptions about the academic and professional successes of Black children, emphasising that resilience against systemic barriers often stems from a nurturing environment that fosters a positive self-image. We highlight the crucial role of community support and role models in constructing a robust racial identity, while I offer a glimpse into my personal confrontation with stereotypes. This episode is not just an exploration but a much-needed discussion on the societal pressures that lead to self-monitoring within marginalised groups and the essential understanding of historical narratives crafted to perpetuate black inferiority.
Shift your perspective as we examine the multifaceted ways internalised racism is navigated by Black individuals across the globe, from Western societies to the African continent. We discuss the importance of fostering safe mental spaces and recognising racial trauma in the current socio-political climate. Closing the discussion, we turn our focus to the youngest among us, understanding the necessity of guiding children through the realities of racism and the delicate balance of advocacy with self-care. Join us for this enlightening and empowering dialogue, designed not only to foster understanding but to ignite a fire for change.
Guest information
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/adorncic/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.c
Steph Edusei LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/steph-edusei/
Steph Edusei Instagram https://www.instagram.com/stephedusei/
Original music by Wayne C McDonald, #ActorSlashDJ
www.facebook.com/waynecmcdonald
www.mixcloud.com/waynecmcdonald
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Hi everybody, welcome to Black Ball Year. It's really lovely to see you all on this rather chilly November morning or lunchtime. Where I am, I'm Steph Edusei say. I'm the creator of Black All Year, and Black All Year was created to remind everyone that Black issues and challenges are a achievement. Experiences happen all year round and not just in Black History Month. If you've missed any of the previous events, they are available on YouTube and as a podcast, and if you're watching or listening to this after the event, please like and subscribe, because it makes sure that you won't miss any future material and it also helps others to find the content.
Steph Edusei:So today's topic is something that I think we've probably all witnessed, even if we weren't aware that we'd witnessed it. It's internalised oppression and I'm really, really pleased that here to talk about it is our guest, Tina Simo. So Tina is a creative community practitioner. She's a trainer, speaker, facilitator and founder of Adorn CIC, which is a social enterprise that promotes the circular economy and wellbeing. She has an MA in community and youth work from Durham University and a really strong track record of working with the voluntary community and social enterprise for over 20 years, which, if you see her, you'll be amazed that she's been around for that long. She's been raised in the West End of Newcastle for those that don't know Newcastle well, and the West End of Newcastle is the northeast longest-standing ethnically, culturally, religiously and socioeconomically diverse area. She has extensive experience of engaging with and serving marginalised communities and throughout her career she's worked with children, with young people, adults, including parents and professionals, in various settings via some really well-established local charities like HealthWorks rather the former Scotland Area Strategy, streetwise, young People's Project, show Racism, the Red Card and Angelou Centre.
Steph Edusei:And Tina's also been interviewed on BBC Radio Newcastle and for ITV Look North about her working in schools around female genital mutilation and has also spoken at various anti-racism rallies, teachers conferences, Black History Month and International Women Day events, and her special interests are anti-Blackness, social justice, intersectionality, anti-oppressive practices and Black History. So she is extremely well-qualified to be our speaker today. I can see you pulling that thing. We get that stuff off and on the with guests. That kind of like is that me? But yeah, tina, welcome to Black All Year, thank you very much, Steph.
Tina Simbo:Yeah, and it's great to be here. I'm looking forward to the conversation and seeing how it goes. Right, okay, so I have prepared. Sorry.
Steph Edusei:What I was just going to say to you. I mean, one of the things that I said at the beginning is about internalised oppression and the fact that we've all witnessed it, and anybody who says they happen just doesn't know what it is. So kind of what is it? What is internalised oppression?
Tina Simbo:Okay so, I have prepared some slides and some like documents and stuff, but to summarise, really it's the way that people accept the negative stereotypes about the group they belong to. Yeah, and I'll be speaking from the perspective of a Black woman, and it's basically it affects the way people think, the way they feel, the way they act and how they choose to present themselves to the world, and so it's things that we might witness in other people, but at the same time, I think it's behaviourist that we ourselves would have demonstrated, whether we're conscious of it or not.
Steph Edusei:So I suppose, if I think of one that really springs to mind, and this is not about ethnicity at all, but that thing of the dumb blonde. And you'll have blonde women who go oh damn, so I'm having a blonde moment. It's that kind of thing, isn't it? It's that, actually. I accept that that's true, because that is a stereotype that's out there, that blonde women are stupid.
Tina Simbo:Definitely. And then what was interesting is because I've just been doing a lot more reflection about myself, people. I know the ways in which I've tried to like, maybe resist against it, but at the same time, the ways in which maybe I've kind of conformed with those stereotypes, because sometimes the stereotypes aren't necessarily negative, they could be positive. Do you know what I mean? So it's quite complex and quite nuanced and I think, just because of the era that we're living in and the world that we're living in, then there is systems and ideas and policies and practices that in order to be able to survive and thrive, we need to find how we can fit in and how we can get by.
Tina Simbo:So some of it is people, like different scholars have said, it's like it's an instinctive thing or it's a strategy, you know, in terms of, like, people's social mobility, and I think as I've got older, I've maybe learned to have more grace towards people in terms of how they might choose to navigate all of that. You know, yeah, how they might choose to navigate all that. There's a difference from people just doing what they need to do to survive and people being disrespectful and rejecting people if they don't conform to certain expectations. You know, I mean like so, yeah, so I think what I'm going to do is I'm going to share my screen, if you don't mind, and let us know, steph, if it's becoming too theoretical or too academic, you know, just don't, no problem, right, okay? So I'm trying to do this. The first thing it's asking me it says host only or all participants about sharing.
Steph Edusei:Oh, if you just click on where it says share screen rather than the little arrow.
Tina Simbo:Oh yes, thank you very much.
Steph Edusei:And I think, while we're just waiting for that, if anybody has any questions or comments, please pop them in the chat or raise your hand and we can come to you around that. So, tina, over to you.
Tina Simbo:Okay, so the first thing I'm showing is this slide here, and this is taken from a talk that I did for Black History Month years ago now, and basically it's talking about the perceptions of Black people prior to the kind of like the pinnacle of transatlantic slavery, which was like hereditary child slavery.
Tina Simbo:So this guy had been traveling in this is like in the 17th century and he's saying from what you see he's going, just think that this race of Black men today are slaves. The object of us going is the very race to which we all are scientists, sciences and even the use of speech. Just imagine, finally, that in the midst of people who call themselves the greatest friend of liberty and humanity, that one has approved the most barbarous slavery. Barbarous slavery in question, whether Black men have the same kind of intelligence as whites, do you know? I mean so. To me, this speaks on the fact that a lot of the ideologies that have came from transatlantic slavery were intentional to justify the crimes against humanity that were being committed. But it's kind of created this narrative, you know, I mean this branding of Blackness that was still living, the legacy of today.
Steph Edusei:And I think that's a really, really good point and I did a Black History Month talk with some young people not long ago and it was actually there was there was this perception of Black people and then it suddenly changed. And it was around the 16 1700s that it suddenly changed and it's there's no coincidence that it was as the slave trade started to come, come into fruition and, as you say, it was an intentional thing, because if you were going to buy and sell people and treat them appallingly, you had to make out that they were less than human.
Tina Simbo:Exactly, exactly, and this this largest talks about basically how important slavery was to the industrial revolution and the consolidation of power within certain countries. Do you know, in certain parts of the world and and as you'll see, I've got references for where I've got this information from and to me that also speaks to the ways in which you know, I'm conscious of, you know, like oppression and anti-Blackness, and how I've internalised, feeling I need to back up everything I say. Do you know? I mean, and even the fact that I went down a very intellectual route that will be to kind of counter the narrative that Black people are stupid. Do you know? I mean, um, okay, and then, as you were saying before as well, like the 16th century, like this concept of what it means to be white is something that was socially constructed and to give people access to rights and privileges that other people wouldn't be entitled to, there was a need wasn't there to, because I think prior to that you would.
Steph Edusei:If you look at things like Shakespeare, they were referred to the Moors as a people, not black, and they were. They were referenced the colour of their skin being darker and things, but they referred to them as the Moors because that was the people that they were. But there was this. There need to go. Oh well, we need to say that we're white so that we can say that you're. We're saying black.
Tina Simbo:Now, that wasn't the term that was used, but you know that you're black, you're different, you're other, and making that differentiation Exactly, exactly, Okay and then this is a quote that I found, but it hasn't been verified, and the reason I've put it up is basically, if anybody knows about the Haitian Revolution, that was the establishment of the first black republic in the western hemisphere and basically, at the time, enslaved African men, women and children managed to feed some of the great superpowers, like the French in the Spanish, you know. So I couldn't find this being verified. It's on a website, but it's one of those things. But it's this idea that that lends to the branding of what blackness meant. It was like okay, we can't allow this group of people to be seen as anything other than commodities. Do you know what I mean? Because it will upset the status quo, right, okay, so internalized racism. So, like I said before, acceptance of negative messages, and it relates to people's abilities and their worth, you know, and and this quote just looks about the different levels of racism that can be internalized and it can relate to individuals in a personal experiences as individuals or groups, and you know that's about intentional or intent, unintentional, prejudice, discrimination, but then it's also institutionalized, it's about access to resources and it's also about, like, how inequalities are embedded within social systems. So I'm saying all this just to kind of create a context to not understand of, like, what oppression is, because we can make assumptions that we've all got a similar understanding, but it just depends, you know, I mean, on what work we've done.
Tina Simbo:And really all of this is talking about a different concept called appropriated racial oppression, which is trying to say that basically, people might start to believe that it's deserved. Yeah, it's the natural order. So you know, black people being at the bottom of the kind of racial hierarchy is natural and it's inevitable. And I underlined inevitable because it made me question the ways that I've internalized it myself. Do you know what I mean? Like?
Tina Simbo:And things are so like things that I might say, like when certain people have a negative experience and like I don't know on reality TV and I'm like, well, it's to be expected, why did the God not show, do you know? I mean, but really, if I'm looking at it, that's me internalizing it, because why is it to be expected? And this really lends here to when it's in about. This definition suggests that racial messages are taken into repeated exposure, you know, and when you think about whether that's in the media, whether that's in the education system, do you know, I mean, whether that's in the workplace. It's like if you're getting these messages day in, day out, whether you're consciously aware of it or not, you're all going to be taking it in, do you know, I mean? And then it informs how you then decide you're going to show in the world, you know you know this is a.
Steph Edusei:Really Again, it's a. It's a. It's a flippant example of this. But I remember years ago being in Ghana and I was over in Ghana, working there for a while in a hospital and in the hospital waiting room had a TV set and the TV would show the tweenies and the Teddy Tubby's. That was some of the programming that they had in Ghana at the time and I can remember talking to the doctor.
Steph Edusei:So this is an educated man. He trained in the UK and he was sitting one day and it was on and he went, you know step. He said white children are so clever, they are so clever we would never be able to get black children to be able to do that, excuse me. And he believed that because the figures looked small on TV, that in the costumes it must be white children and it didn't even register that it could be adults doing it. But he believed that that was an example of how white was better than black. And this is a black African doctor. So that thing of oh yes, it's completely internalised and we just know, we know we're going to be in a worse position because the whites are better than us is so prevalent, not just in a Western society.
Tina Simbo:Definitely, definitely. And when you're speaking about that as well, it makes us think about in terms of the legacy of colonialism and even though you might have studied in the UK and maybe that's where you learned to be, you know is medicine and became a doctor or whatever it's a fact that the education system will probably be a legacy of the colonial education system and how white people are being presented. Do you know what people are learning on the continent about African history and black history?
Steph Edusei:Yeah, and of course the media and things like that that people are consuming still has those messages in where it shows white people excelling and black people not. So that you know, people pick up on those messages in exactly the same way as we do in the West.
Tina Simbo:And it's interesting because it's like you know I was thinking about how then some people will reject other black people because they feel that they're either they're not doing enough to challenge the status quo. Do you know what I mean? Like so it's almost like blaming someone who's experiencing poverty for living poverty, you know I mean, and not thinking about any of the kind of like systemic issues, you know that might have had that impact, you know, and and how it's almost like a way that people try and make sense of the world. Do you know what I mean? So that is so people must, must the must be stupid or the must be lazy, or they must be criminal. Do you know what I mean? Not that there's kind of like disproportionate stop and search, is not that there's discrimination and the criminal justice system. It's like, okay, people must. It's like this stereotype exists because people must be living life this way. You know, and it's really interesting. It says at the bottom here that several studies have documented that there's an inverse association between racial discrimination and savable mental health. So really, what it's saying is affect people's mental health. Do you know what I mean? And there's evidence to show that if it's, people will experience mood disorders or even there's physiological as well as psychological impacts of racism, you know, like toxic stress which relates to how much cortisol is falling for you veins and how that affects like immune system. So all of that evidence is there.
Tina Simbo:But this, like I'm saying, it even lends to the ways that I'm trying to fight against that oppression. Do you know what I mean by saying I need to know all of this stuff? You know I need to know all of this stuff. You know, because at school, the way I was raised, I couldn't be having physical fights over time. You know getting into trouble and plus, at the time I grew up in the 80s, you know I was the only after my elder siblings had moved away from the primary school and the second school. I was the only black child in those schools.
Tina Simbo:So and that was a time when people would use racial slaves very kind of like flippantly just to describe people. That might not even be trying to insult somebody, but that was just the language and you'll know the words that I'm talking about begin today and all the rest of it. So it's kind of like. So on one level I'm trying to say no, black people aren't stupid. But two, I'm also thinking how can I fight against this? I need to, I need to understand it, I need to be able to explain it. I need to do not. I mean, but that is like still having a huge influence on how I choose to live my life, rather than just existing, rather than just being, rather than just following my own passions. I'm centering this experience of racism within who I am. Do you know what I mean?
Steph Edusei:And that mental load that comes with that that you're having to constantly think if I'm going to say this, I absolutely need to have that evidence that backs that up, whereas actually, something that was not related to race at all, you could just say it and people wouldn't challenge it.
Tina Simbo:Yeah, exactly Okay, and this is really interesting. I found this basically, and it's talking about racial self identity and it's talking about what you were speaking about. That black doctor in Ghana says three months, do you know? I mean like there's no statistical difference in how much time newborn babies spent examining faces of any race, including their own. They're not aware of this. Yeah, sorry, that's from the three months they're starting to notice the difference, but do you know what I mean? They're not really. They're not assigning any value to it at all, you know, and basically, but it's when it starts getting to 12 and 30 months of age, the majority of all children studied and basically chose same race playmates.
Tina Simbo:Yeah, that's at the age of 36 months, the majority of black and white children chose white playmates, showing a bias towards a socially privileged group. So, at 36 months, children already realizing that this group is in power and this is the group I should associate myself with. Do you know what I mean? Then, when you get into five years of age, basically children are expecting white children to have their possessions, so the material aspect, whether it's a house, a car, bedrooms do you know what I mean? And then we're starting to predict that black children will have lower status occupations when they're growing adults. So when people say, like you know, children don't think that way, they don't see colour, yes, they do. Do you know what I mean? And there's evidence to show that they do.
Steph Edusei:And that's at the age of five and six. I mean, that is to think that you've got children who are at the age of six. Saying actually I'm going to have a less good outcome in my life because I'm black is actually quite heartbreaking, and it's one of those things like then what does that child do?
Tina Simbo:Like, how do they respond to that? Do you know what I mean? Like, do they then try and work harder to make sure that doesn't happen, or do they feel like there's no point in trying because that is going to happen? Do you know what I?
Tina Simbo:mean so yeah, yeah and and yeah. So it's kind of like, in whatever way it's becoming internalised. But then how do people respond to that? Do you know what I mean? And then, what I thought was interesting I'm just going to move this is that it says that by 11 to 12, black children from low socioeconomic status backgrounds were less likely to aspire to prestigious occupations than children from higher socioeconomic backgrounds. So if you look at the correlation between race and class and just the idea that you know, part of what race tries to do is keep black people in a subordinate class, then it's kind of be it's going to be an overrepresentation of children who are thinking, actually, I'm not going to get to live this life, you know, and that's really, that's really saddening. It's. How how do you then? How do you then challenge that? How do you then address it? And and it's interesting that you've been talking about people's personal experiences I remember like ways I felt as a child grown up.
Tina Simbo:So I was fortunate that my mum, you know, she bought me a black dog from the 80s. I had a black dog to play with and she set up a community group, you know. So in this community group would go and learn traditional songs. You'd be around other African children. So, even though you know you might go for months and months not seeing another black person, that was within, like outside, of your own family. There was a space you could go to, where you'd be around other children who shared aspects of your identity, and so that was a positive thing.
Tina Simbo:And even the exposure to like literature. So I was maybe I was too young, but I was reading books by Tony Morrison and Alice Walker. So these were women telling stories about black people, so black people representing themselves rather than how they're being represented in the media. So that had a big impact on this. And also my parents' family like, and their friends. They were professionals, you know. So I knew like, okay, I've got, you know, uncles that are doctors and accountants, so they've got this kind of occupation, you know. So what I'm experiencing, my lived like yeah, yeah, my lived experience is different from what I'm being exposed to in the media. So I know there's something.
Steph Edusei:There's something like not correlated, and I think that that last point there, that about the difference between the achievement of black children from low socioeconomics backgrounds compared to higher, is really, really important, because I know that quite often I have levelled at me well, look at you, you've done all right, and they'll point to people that I know that have been on this on black, or your actually saying, well, look at them, they're a surgeon, you know they're okay, and they try to use that as the way of refuting everything that's being said.
Steph Edusei:Because look at these people, look at quasi-quarting, look at you know, and they'll pick these really high achievers. But on the whole, when you look at us, we've come from higher socioeconomic backgrounds. To start off with, or with my parents, who actually was, they may have been quite poor in this country. They've come from wealthy families back home. So they've come from the middle class, the upper middle class in their country of origin and, yes, they may have come here and had to work as cleaners, but they've already. They're bringing that psyche with them. And so that point I think when people talk about those few black people who are really excelling, they're missing that really subtle difference there, that we have an extra layer of something. That perhaps is the thing that gets us through some of those negative stereotypes and take that forward ourselves.
Tina Simbo:Exactly because, to be honest, like when I went to university, I wasn't really ready to go. I wasn't really mature enough to go at the time, and I partly wanted to go to Newcastle and to be around more black people, to be around what I thought was like my peer group. And because my mum at the time was working at Newcastle College, she was aware that tuition fees were going to be introduced. And because my dad came from that background, he didn't practice medicine in this country but he had studied medicine and studied nausea. He's like I knew I couldn't go home without a degree. That alone was enough to get me through, even if I was wasted my time, even if I was hanging about with friends, and I knew I couldn't go home without it. So it's that extra motivation, or just that expectation of what we can achieve, which can push you. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, so this is kind of like kind of painting the picture of how embedded it is, you know. And then at some point I'm pretty sure if I got the next slide it talks about identity formation and basically.
Tina Simbo:So I used to work at the Angeli Center and I used to deliver some training to foster carers who were working with black and minoritized children. So those are the children who had in their care. So it was talking about the importance of positive racial identity formation and then I looked into how people formed that identity, saying like, if you're part of the dominant group this is what involves the child observes who's in power. The observed that those in power are similar to themselves and basically they assume that they will achieve similar accomplishments and gain similar levels of power as the members of that group. So it's just an assumption. They take a look at the world around them. They kind of see where they fit in and think, okay, I can have what these people in positions of power have, you know. And it's interesting because that relates to how some of the backlash when people don't achieve that and the resentment that can cause because of being raised to think, well, that's the norm and that entitled to it. Do you know what I mean?
Steph Edusei:Well, I suppose that's why you get people talking about oh, it's a meritocracy and I've achieved this because I'm really good. They don't see. Well, actually there may be other things that play here that mean that it's helped you to get to that point.
Tina Simbo:And it's like I was just reflecting today about like. So, as an able-bodied person, the fact that public like I don't drive at the minute public transport is designed for a majority able-bodied people, that's a privilege, because I didn't have to do anything for that to exist. It's just that the way that I was born do you know what I mean? It's like my body functions in the way that people assume the majority of people's bodies function, so everything's already designed for me. Do you know what I mean?
Tina Simbo:And I think that's what relates to certain things when it comes to other characteristics that have more power. So it says from minorityized or the press group that basically they observe who is in power, they observe that good members who are similar to themselves might not be in positions of power or they're not, that the observer and experienced prejudice, discrimination and stereotypes about their group, and then they assume that basically, that members of minority group have the same limited rights, can only achieve similar accomplishments, and that maybe they're not as good. Because if they're not understanding about systemic issues or historical things that have kind of informed it, like today's experiences, then they're going to think that's the only rational explanation. They're just not as good.
Steph Edusei:And so then I started thinking what I've got going through my head is that sketch. I can't remember it. It's a really old sketch and it's got Ronnie Corbett, ronnie Barker and John Clees and it's got a class, middle class, and the working class person keeps saying I know my place. That's what that sounds like to me. It's the. I'm not going to expect anymore because I know my place. I know what I'm going to get and what I deserve.
Tina Simbo:Exactly, and that's the thing as well, like how the members of like a minority so, whether it's because of class or even like, even though when it comes to gender, then class might be similar or there might be more women in terms of power than where minoritized, you know, in positions of power and it's kind of like how we then police each other. Do you know what I mean when somebody is seen to be getting above their station, you know, and kind of like, hold on, who does? Who does you think she is? Or even that thing. I remember at school people saying she loves herself, like. And when you think about, if you think about how we love people we care about, like, why shouldn't somebody love themselves? The fact that that is seem to be a negative thing. She loves herself, okay, so she's supposed to hate herself. Do you know what I mean?
Steph Edusei:Yeah, and you see that so often nowadays. I'm just thinking about the media, particularly black women. You see so much in the media and on social media where people comment about black women who are assertive, in control and don't take any rubbish from people and they say that you know they're uppity and they're full of themselves and and and it's that kind of it says to everybody else all the rest of the black women, don't be like them, because they're a nasty, bad person.
Tina Simbo:Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly. And it's and I think a lot of the times it's like because if somebody isn't living up to the stereotypes that they have accepted as being the known for that person, that creates this cognitive dissonance, this feeling of unease, you know, I mean there's something wrong and rather than people doing what they call this shadow working and examining what thoughts and beliefs that they might have, that is contributing to that feeling like why the feeling threatened or why the feeling defended, it's like, it's almost like then they want to punch that person for making them feel that way. Do you know what I mean? Like okay, then, or even if people assume that they should have more confidence, or they should have more success, or they should have they should, and they don't when they're making comparisons, it's like that's because there's something bad about this person. In my head I'm thinking well, you told me to compare yourself in the first place. I know it's society, but it's kind of like it's still. It's kind of unfair, because then what happens is especially I notice how women might do that they might want to then chip away at that woman's self-esteem, you know, because they don't feel she deserves it, because she is a woman or because she is a black woman, or because she's a working class woman, and that's that's. I think that's why I'm really interested in how we internalize it, because we need to be able to like reflect, not so much think if we're internalized it, but think how we're internalized it and in which ways do we reproduce it, and then start like working from there.
Tina Simbo:So, so then I was thinking, okay then, so we're talking about the title was about revealing and healing, and I'm thinking, okay, so how can we heal? You know, and and because I've worked with young people and this was originally the research was around, like you know, for carers I thought, okay then, so what do we need to do? You know, I mean, and it's like I'm saying, okay, we need to have access to information and support that's going to enable us to like support children to feel better about this, feel better about the racial identity, to feel positive about it, and that's, you know, we need to reflect in the firm people's heritage that we need to provide emotional and practical support, you know, so people can feel connected to and positive about that heritage, so that there's consequences if we fail to do this. You know, and that relates to the other stuff about mental health and, you know, mean physical health, and I was like, why? Okay, because it promotes a sense of self worth and self esteem and belonging. You know, it prevents people from having self hatred, denying that racism even exists or blaming people because of how racism might have impacted on them. Because that's what, when I was talking before about having some grace, you know, because when I was grown up, like I said, you know, I was often the only black child and I experienced like bullying and but then I remember being about 11 or 12 and having family friends come up from London so they're grown up in South London, very different demographic and so it went from me having experiences of being rejected because I was black to then having someone who is, you know, black and you know, from recently arrived from Africa, saying Colin is a bounty, and I was like what do you know I mean? And that's, oh my God, you're not black enough. Yeah, not black enough. And the fact that I'm saying this now just shows that, like how much I've viewed from out, because that had a big influence. Because then I was thinking okay, then if I'm not black enough, how do I then present myself as a black person and it's interesting because that that correlated to me becoming a very good dancer.
Tina Simbo:Yeah, because I was a positive stereotype of black people, that black people can dance, and I remember Dirty Dancing. The film had came out and me, my friend, the friend, the white friend to had a whole playroom. Do you know what I mean? I used to look about with a and dance and we used to like listen to Dirty Dancing soundtrack and dance for hours and hours. And then, as I was grown up, I used to always watch music videos and practice the dance moves.
Tina Simbo:But it's just interesting how I went from one side of feeling like, basically, that you know my blackness was presented to me something negative and I needed to counter that, but then how other black people are judging my blackness is not being black enough or authentic, and then how I'm trying to live up to the positive stereotypes of what black people could be, what was shown in the media. Do you know what I mean? And so that was interesting. Yeah, so go back to that.
Tina Simbo:I like to go a little random tangents was not so random, but it's just my lived experience and but basically so like, equip and raise your mind right young people to cope with racism and discrimination and the challenges of being part of a racial minority community, and I think this is something that it's like a work in progress, because how do you quit people like do not I mean, is it a social mobility, which is often the thing education and getting a good job and having enough kind of like wealth to kind of buffer the negative aspect? Or is it around like having positive role models and know enough about your history, knowing that it's like black inferiority was like fabrication? Do not I mean an understanding that you know?
Steph Edusei:And there's something I think there's a lot about this that it builds your own feelings of self worth and and it's kind of, I always think I quite often describe things as it's like putting it in the bank, up with it in the topping up your sink, because the racism will pull all of that out. It's like it's going down the plug hole and and you need to have stuff that's constantly topping it up, so all of that positive reinforcement and stuff will kind of keep filling that sync up whilst the racism is pulling stuff out the bottom. And I've got a comment about this and I was going to say this for people who are listening on the podcast as well yes, all of the slides are all shared on the recording that goes on YouTube, but I'll also put links to all of the documents and things that you've shared, tina, in the podcast description as well, so that people can look at that as well.
Tina Simbo:Okay, so I'm sure, I'm sure it's in the studio, okay, and so, yeah, so that was, that was an interesting experience, because I'm thinking about what did I do like, how did I cope at the time? And, yes, I became a very good dancer and I love dancing. And then, you know, I used to rap, so I became a rapper. You know what I'm thinking, because I'm thinking what representations that I have in the media. At the time, you had Trevor McDonald, you had Naomi Campbell, do you know I mean? And then you had like entertainers and dancers and rappers, you know I mean, and it was just interesting. But then, at the same time, I would say is when I got to about the age of 14.
Tina Simbo:I was lucky because obviously you've got like in the, in the, in the Western world, you know, the representation of blackness, the tendency the most is African Americans, do you know I mean? And and it's their culture that's been kind of exported around the world. The same American culture has been exported. So I was lucky to go up at a time where it was seem to be the golden age of hip hop, do you know what I mean? And and also films like Mark and Max came out, you know, and and I remember, yeah, watching that and I used to go to school and I used to wear my Mark and Max pendants and then I was doing speeches at school and I was like I'm going to go to school, do you know? I mean so became like a little bit more kind of militant with my presentation of my blackness and I also remember how that kind of lent me to have that sense of pride, maybe more and less like all we need to conform, to get buying, to be accepted. We need assert who we are and what our values are, rather than feeling like actually need to reject it, to assimilate, you know. And so that was quite important and I realized that was the time up until that point, because I used to love to draw creative, it was another thing that kind of helped me to sort of like process whatever negative feelings I had.
Tina Simbo:I noticed that I was drawn mostly white people. So just think how embedded that is in your own imagination when you dream to what you're seeing in your dream, when you're using imagination and creating characters, who are you creating? And I think, from that point, when I read that autobiography, every time I go to just doodle and draw face, it's always a black woman, it's always that's like and but. That had to be a conscious shift and I remember when I was a youth worker and seeing some African children who maybe had recently arrived and noticed that when they were drawn, they were drawn always drawn white people as well. And if you think, how alienated do you need to be from your identity, that when you're imagining, like using imagination, you're not imagining yourself? Do you know what I mean?
Steph Edusei:And I think it's really interesting. So one of the guests that we've had on Black All Year and Goldsy Cole, and a phrase she used that stuck with me ever since, was that she was born and brought up in Nigeria. She didn't realise she was black until she came to the UK. Now, of course she knew she was black. Of course she knew she was black, but it was that actually it wasn't a thing until she came to the UK and then actually her blackness became a thing.
Tina Simbo:And.
Steph Edusei:I think it is.
Steph Edusei:It's that difference in the way that people that have been brought up in a predominantly white society view their blackness compared to people that have been brought up in a predominantly black society.
Steph Edusei:And there is a difference in self-worth, I think, bearing in mind what we were saying earlier about just the impact of colonialism and how just deep rooted that is across all of the former colonies. But yeah, there's still a very different perception of black identity and, as you say, you were borrowing an African-American culture to feel more black. I probably I mean, I probably did it a bit later than you and mine was African, it was Gohan Hain and really kind of taking that on more. But that tendency to try and conform, to not upset and not rock the boat and to take on a lot of those negative stereotypes about black people I've seen so many times in black people that I know where they kind of you will hear them say about somebody oh well, that's because they're black and it's a negative thing. And I even know somebody who does not use the term black because they have such negative stereotypes with the type of people who call themselves black.
Tina Simbo:Exactly exactly, and it just goes to show how complex it is and how nuanced. And that's why I was saying before, I think it's not a case of whether, if people have internalized it, it's how, and then the ways in which they kind of like demonstrate that. Do you know what I mean? Because it's like you know, if you think about the world that we're living in, this is just like a particular period of history, it's like an epoch, you know, but like you know how racism was embedded within capitalism. Do you know what I mean? And it was something and we've all internalized capitalism because that is the, that's the way we access opportunities and resources, the things that we need to survive and thrive. So obviously we're going to internalize it. Do you know what I mean? And it's just interesting for me, like yeah, because on one I think I might have went the other way and to resist conforming I might have tried. Definitely I'm not going to conform. Do you know what I mean? But then what I had to do when I was doing some more like learning more about internalized racism was like just having that grace for other black people in terms of the ways that we choose to survive, because we're all dealing with it, whether we're dealing with it in the Western world or on the continent. Do you know what I mean? Whether we're dealing with it because, because, whether descendants of slaves or whether we're descendants of people who are colonized, do you know what I mean? It's kind of like we're all dealing with it and we've all found in different ways to sort of survive and thrive in the way that, yeah, in the ways that we can, you know, and it's kind of like one of the reasons.
Tina Simbo:It's interesting, one of the reasons I even went into youth work is because there wasn't many black African people doing youth work at the time. Where I was living. It was an older Indian man who was a youth worker who actually made me aware about, like some of the institutional kind of racism young people, black and brown people who I could experience in secondary school and I felt like, do you know what I mean? I had a responsibility. So even my life choices in terms of the career I went into was because feeling like like what do you think about when I mentioned the Haitian Revolution and what enslaved African men and women and children achieved at that time, at the height of slavery?
Tina Simbo:And I think how much the push things forward. For us. It's like how are we gonna push things forward for the next generation and not just to be able to have positions like individuals, I'm gonna say like black and brown faces, in high places. We know that doesn't make a difference in terms of what the experience for the majority of people are like. So we need to push it further. Do you know what I mean? And I think the ways we can do that is maybe helping to dismantle some of the mental slavery that people have.
Steph Edusei:You know and that's why Sorry, if I can, just sorry, tintra, but I think, because you've mentioned it, I think it's probably interesting just to speak about some of those black and brown faces in high places, because if ever there's been examples of internalized oppression, we've seen them over the last couple of years, haven't we in our government? I mean, you know that whole narrative that has come out of some of the government ministers about particularly immigrants, but just, and a lot of us, I think, have really struggled when you look at people and you go, you're brown and you're talking about people. You know your parents were immigrants to this country and yet you're talking about brown skin, the immigrants, in such an appalling way. That's well, it's two things it's either game playing or it's internalized oppression. If they genuinely believe that that has to be, they've taken on all of those negative stereotypes about people who look like them and they're playing them out louder and stronger than I think most white people would feel confident to do. Yeah, definitely.
Tina Simbo:And I think what was interesting, because when I was looking at that article that was talking about like appropriated oppression and those talking about just the fact that there's rewards for it and that's what it is, and the reward is the status or the reward is access to wealth. Do you know what I mean, like opportunities, resources, and I think that's what some people will do, like they would throw other people under the bus in order to benefit from it themselves. Do you know what I mean? And kind of, yeah, and I don't know. I don't know what it's saying.
Tina Simbo:I'll be honest, the way that I've put now, because, like when I was going through some of the slides before, it was talking about how much exposure you're getting in the media and what I would say is I've started to limit my exposure in the media and what I see Do you know what I mean? Just because it's like it's trying to create a safe, like mental space for myself to see myself through the eyes of people who look like me. Do you know what I mean? Or who at least don't believe the worst about people like me? But then what I can do is kind of like like you know when you can be in a bit of the echo chamber so you don't realise how far you're moving away from what maybe a lot of other people think. Do you know what I mean?
Steph Edusei:You don't realise yeah, I would describe it a bit more of a bubble than an echo chamber, right, okay?
Steph Edusei:So I think that was one of the things that happened around Brexit was that I was kind of. I was in this lovely bubble where people I was in the voluntary community sector by that point People were nice and they were open and they were welcoming and it was all about, you know, equity and let's fight for social justice and all that type of thing. And because people hadn't shouted at me in the streets for a while, it was like, actually, you know what the world is moving on, isn't this great? And then we got Brexit, we got Trump, we got the current government and some of the rhetoric that's coming out of them, and it was just like where's this come from? It was a real shock for me because I thought we'd moved away from it, because I had built this very protective bubble around myself.
Steph Edusei:Yeah, so it's that you do what you need to do to protect your mental health, and I'm a bit like you. I don't really engage with the news that much. I know what's going on in the world because I do go on social media, but again.
Steph Edusei:I'm a bit protective about who I choose to engage with on social media.
Tina Simbo:Yeah, definitely need to, because it's like it's yeah, because then the day it's like it's not mean that it's not nice and it's a lot worse now, but it's kind of like it is trauma. And I think even for me it's like there's a term about like kind of the call it racial trauma and how basically there's all this information about the suffering that people experience because of racism. And I used to be part of a group on Facebook like going about I don't know. It was probably the height, it was 2011, 2012. And it was called Mind Wide Open and we used to have really deep conversations about all the things that people say should talk about religion, politics. Do you know what I mean? Like kind of all of the like social, just solar time. And I remember there was a guy he happened to be he was of Greek origin, but he's living in the States and we'll have some discussion about like social, just racism. And he made a comment and nobody responded and I was like when I read it, he said something like and he was just trying to troll people. But he says he said something like. I love it when black people complain about being born black, exactly.
Tina Simbo:So this is someone who had acted like an ally for a long time, and I think it's just, he just got annoyed and he wanted to say something. He wanted to trigger people and I was surprised that nobody shut it down. Like I wear it, because do you know what I mean? I was thinking somebody's gonna handle this and a couple of days back went by and nobody had, so then I dived into this like debate or whatever, and I got so consumed by it. I had just moved into a new flat I think I was gonna make some food and I put something on the stove and then I got caught into this discussion. Do you know what I mean? And this is what I'm saying about how can you come all consuming? I forgot about the fact that I had something on the stove. I was like all of my mental and emotional energy had to go into challenging this person and providing all the evidence as to why what you were saying was wrong, and I was so triggered by the fact that he could begin any kind of enjoyment out of this, like you know. And then it made this thing actually, you know, like having those conversations about the harm that's caused. It's not everybody is there for genuine purpose. Do you know what I mean? It's because it's like, and it's like so I want to see like action and that's why I thought you know this. I'm going to make sure I talk about what can caregivers do and what can educators do and what. What could be the ways that we can intervene for young people. So, as adults, we need to do our own work, but then we need to also protect younger people from this and help them cope with it.
Tina Simbo:Just because I just I just couldn't believe it, and being in that group was really. It was a good experience because I realized, like there's a book called Derailing for Dummies, or it's actually a PDF that you can search online and it shows you, it tells you all the stereotypical ways that people who might be from a privileged group try and shut down the conversation. So what they'll do is they'll do really from trying to get hold of them, accountable for their racism or their sexism or their heteronormativity or whatever, and they'll distract you with all these things like oh, you two are angry, or you need to educate me, or you're being too intellectual, or all of these different things. You know what I mean and I think and I remember, just because it was almost like a debating group when I was having conversations in real life. People just had to say one or two things and I knew what was underlying, so they couldn't necessarily disguise it as much, because I'd seen all the different ways people would kind of disguise the fact that, actually the indifference. You know what I mean and they're aware that they might benefit from this system of oppression. You know, and they're attached to those benefits because it makes our life easier.
Tina Simbo:So, yeah, so, going on to recommendations, I don't know how long we've been talking about, but it was like all of us doing our own work. You know what I mean Reflecting upon, questioning, challenging our own thoughts and feelings. You know, when it comes to this, when it comes to, like, heritage and ethnicity and culture and racism, because we need to understand what we're thinking, why we think it. You know what I mean and how we'll act upon it. And it was a and so that obviously involves educating yourself, but also educating other people about the history, what's happened in history to get us to this point, but also what other ethnic groups contributed. Do you know what I mean? Like, because there's been any amount of contributions. That's just like a fact, but you might not have been told about it, so you need to go out and find that out rather than making the assumption that it just doesn't exist, you know, and learning about different cultures, and then it was also like developing shared skills. So this is about, I said, useful for surviving and thriving. So I don't know.
Tina Simbo:Education is an important one. People developing their resilience how do you then kind of basically regulate your nervous system when you are triggered? Do you know what I mean? Because you're in a stressful situation, emotional intelligence, like all of these things are important to help people survive. This, you know, and I've put health literacy, financial literacy, community development. It's like because it's like you've got the micro and the macro and we're in order to challenge things. Individuals can't do that. Do you know what I mean? Even though we like to have this narrative of the hero and we're like to put one person up there, it's like no, it's a collective effort.
Tina Simbo:And then I've got like this when it comes to children, we regularly speak with them to identify if there's any problems, like you know what is their experience at school. So, even though my parents did a lot of that work in terms of like normalizing, like blackness to me and exposing me to my like cultural heritage. Maybe they didn't understand the racism I was experiencing at school. Do you know what I mean? Because when they were going up, like they didn't deal with it when they were going up. But also it's like you go to school to learn your baby teacher or what if the teacher is like there's constant microaggressions. Do you know what I mean? Like so having those conversations with children and then I've got like intervene. So, if you can, you know like intervene if you witness a child being mistreated and it's kind of like you've analyzed it to know that what is the reason? There's no other reason other than this, you know, and speaking out about stuff, and then so this was just like roles and responsibilities, so just the different tasks in it, like being able to explain why is it to be mistreated, why are they being mistreated? You know, acknowledged that prejudice and racism exists.
Tina Simbo:Some people want to act like it's not that, anything other than that. Do you know what I mean? And I've seen black people themselves do it because it's too painful of a reality. Maybe I used to do it. I used to do it yeah, yeah, anything, but yeah, exactly Because then it's like then what?
Tina Simbo:It's like? A kind of worms. Do you know what I mean? It's a kind of worms and then basically a range of responses, and it's hard because what could those responses be for sometimes the safest thing is maybe to like just get out of a situation, keep your head down and get out. Do you know what I mean? Or it might be to speak out. It's like you don't know. I think people need to see, think about their safety, you know, and it's one of those things where I think, with this aspect, we're only going to gain that knowledge by talking to each of our and learning what has worked for different people in different situations, because it's not a case of one size fits all, you know, but if you do have more tools in your tool kit, it's more likely that you'll have the right tool for that particular situation, you know.
Tina Simbo:And then role models and positive contact with people in the community, you know, and that's what my parents did with their peers. So it's kind of like does my teacher assume that I was stupid? It's like okay, then I know my uncle lives in the great house. Do you know what I mean? He lived in a great house and he had an electric gate and I was like, wow, this is amazing. Yeah, he wasn't my blood uncle, but it was like you know, when everybody's like a courtesy, yeah, exactly, and then prepare the child. So I don't know about this. How do you prepare child for discrimination? How do you do that?
Steph Edusei:I think there is something about just it goes back to that first bit, isn't it? It's about saying it's there, it does exist and unfortunately, I mean I've had to do this with my daughter you are going to encounter this. It's not a you might, it's going to happen and that's an awful conversation to have, or conversations to have, of you know what. She's just started working and I've had to say it again, you're going into a new environment.
Tina Simbo:Chances are some other people you encounter in that work environment are going to be racist and they are going to discriminate against you, yeah, and I think that's what was important for me, like when I did get to the point, because I used to do some work in Westgate Community College when it was a school, so I'd been with the first school and it was Westgate Community College and we did some work with, like recently arrived young people and because this was what it would have been like 2006, seven, eight, nine. And what I try to do is to personalize the experience of racism, because some of those children were experienced and treated and never had before and it's kind of like letting them know it's not about who they are as individuals, it's a broader thing and helping to understand, like you know, what systemic racism might look like. What, do you know what I mean in a person might look like. So they didn't start it in, because what I would say is my experiences didn't affect my self esteem as part of, like, my racial self esteem as part of a group, but my individual self esteem. Do you know what I mean? I took it personally and, unlike my siblings, I had no memories of going up in a predominantly black country, because I came here in those 18 months. So it was kind of like, whereas my siblings had at least went to school in Sierra Leone first, and then they went to school here, whereas I didn't have that, you know.
Tina Simbo:So, yeah, and then this was interesting to teach the child the difference between response to and the response before their community. So it's kind of like, yeah, you can't, you have to like make sure you live in your life, like put your own oxygen mask on. First, you have to do that. And I think I got to the point where I was trying to be all things to all people and I did get to the point where I burned out to know what I mean, because you know whether it was challenging people's schools or challenging, you know, like I don't know different things or experiences, like we even like challenged the state who had anti deportation campaigns and things like that, and that's a lot to do on top of just living your life, you know, and I just so I think it's getting that balance.
Tina Simbo:And basically the last one is, yeah, advocating challenging on behalf of the children in your care. So I took this very seriously. I did take a very seriously, but I think when I did choose to kind of put my own oxygen mask off, that was me trying to be a positive role model and understanding that actually I deserve to live a life for myself. Yeah, even if, even if I think, yes, we've got a responsibility to make things better for the future generation. It's like we've got a responsibility to ourselves first and foremost, and we're all, yeah, like kind of like we're all just navigating the world as it is, whilst we're trying to shift it to the world that we think it should be, you know, and I think that was it?
Steph Edusei:We are. We're pretty much out of time and oh my god sorry.
Steph Edusei:No, no, it's been, it's been fantastic and I think, yeah, it's really interesting for me, I think, because a lot of that was about children, but I think you could apply exactly the same for for children, for adults, rather in the actually, I think, for we get a lot of white people who listen to the podcast and join these shows and things, and I think it's really important that when you're dealing with somebody or you're interacting with somebody, if you're aware of internalised oppression, you can have different conversations and think about what else might be going on other than what you're just seeing. So I think that's that's really beneficial. But I think some of those recommendations and approaches actually it doesn't matter how old that person is you can, you can do that work, you can start that work. So thank you so much.
Steph Edusei:And the other reason why is I've got to admit, doing these. Doing these is quite challenging, you know, with a bit like you were running, running lots of stuff and lives and all that type of thing. So Black All Year can be quite a heavy load to carry sometimes. But I always find that I do these and I get so energised and get so much out of them personally, and you haven't let me down.
Tina Simbo:You know, that's great. Thank you, thank you for the opportunity I think it is.
Tina Simbo:It's such a great and like just a platform for people, but also what the conversations that people have been having. I think it's so important just to create that space and, to be honest, like what you're saying, it does apply to adults, because I think a lot of us would have been wounded as children, whether around this, whether they were conscious of it or not. So it's almost like that child is then you as well. Do you know what I mean? And what could you then do to nurture yourself in ways that maybe you weren't as a child donor? Yeah Right.
Steph Edusei:So we are going to have to kind of draw things to a close. I'm actually going to take a little bit of a break from live events because we've got Christmas and things coming up, but we've got loads of recordings on a YouTube channel and we've got our podcast as well, which also has some exclusive material. You can sign up for our newsletter to find out more about future events and that's HTTPS and the colons and things and tiny URLcom B A Y newsletter and I'll pop that into the comments and if you've got any topics that you'd like me to cover in future, then please just email me on black all year, uk at outlookcom and so yeah, it's been absolutely brilliant. If you have been listening to this on on as a podcast or on YouTube, as I said, please like and subscribe and thank you so much. I'll hopefully see some of you in the new year and thank you again, tina. Thank you very much.
Steph Edusei:Take care everyone, Bye.
Tina Simbo:Bye.
