Black All Year
Black History Month plays a crucial role, but it's essential to acknowledge that the celebration of Black heritage and culture extends beyond just one month. It's a year-round commitment involving celebration, recognition, support, education, and advocacy. Hosting this podcast is Steph Edusei, a renowned leader, speaker, and coach. As an Ashanti-Geordie woman with mixed Ghanaian and English roots from the North East of England, she brings a unique perspective to the table.
Black All Year
Black All Year - Transforming Trauma: Cultivating Healing and Empowerment in Workspaces
When Marsha Hylton joined me on the podcast, her story of overcoming domestic abuse and transforming that pain into a beacon of hope for others struck a chord deep. Her expertise as a trauma-informed consultant illuminates the subtle, yet profound ways in which trauma embeds itself into our daily lives—often unnoticed, yet ever-present. Our discussion delves into the emotional undercurrents that shape our interactions and responses, emphasizing the crucial need for environments that foster safety and understanding in the healing process. Marsha's blend of clinical acumen and coaching prowess offers a lifeline to those navigating the aftermath of trauma, particularly within the realm of workplace dynamics and relationships marred by narcissistic abuse.
The insidious nature of racism and microaggressions in professional spaces cannot be overstated, and our conversation peels back the layers of how these experiences chip away at the soul. We confront the six pillars of trauma-informed practice—safety, choice, trustworthiness, empowerment, collaboration, and cultural consideration—exploring their transformative potential in crafting work environments that honor and support the complex tapestry of individual experiences. As organizations shift towards inclusivity and empathy, the dialogue around shared decision-making, trust-building, and the avoidance of re-traumatization becomes paramount. Marsha's insights serve as a compass, guiding entities in the healthcare and education sectors toward practices steeped in respect, patience, and shared experiences.
Wrapping our profound discussion, we consider the delicate dance between vulnerability and healing, and the significance of balancing the sharing of painful narratives with the safeguarding of one's emotional well-being. Acknowledging the weight of internalized oppression, we tease an upcoming event that promises to delve deeper into this topic. Join us for an exploration that transcends mere conversation, aiming to reshape perspectives and encourage growth. As you listen, you're invited to not only absorb Marsha's wisdom but also to participate in the evolution of a society that values and upholds the principles of trauma-informed care in every facet of life.
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So hello everyone and welcome to Black All Year. I'm Steph Edusei and I am the creator of Black All Year, which is here to remind everyone that Black issues and challenges, our achievements and experiences, happen all year round and not just in Black History Month, which happens to be this month in the UK. If you've missed any of our previous events, they are available on YouTube and as a podcast, and if you are watching or listening to this after the event, then please like and subscribe, because that'll make sure that you don't miss out on future material and it also helps others to find the content as well. Now, it's quite funny because I often find that when I'm preparing for these Black All Year events, there's loads of examples of what we're going to be talking about that will present themselves to me. I think it's something called the the Baden-Meinhoff phenomenon or something like that, and that's certainly been the case with today's subject of trauma and trauma informed practice.
Steph Edusei:I'm really delighted that our guest today is Marcia Hylton. Marcia is a trauma informed consultant with a unique blend of specialist coaching skills, intensive experience in the health and extensive experience rather not intensive, although it may be both in the healthcare and education industries, and a really deep personal understanding of trauma recovery. She says her mission is to guide organisations towards creating safe and supportive environments by harnessing trauma informed principles. She has over 30 years in the healthcare and education industries as an advanced medical practitioner and Marcia. brings a wealth of knowledge and expertise to her consultancy work, and her experience extends to promoting holistic health, with a particular focus on women's mental and emotional well-being, through community education initiatives. And not only that, but Marcia is a certified integrative and transformational coach, which blends her clinical knowledge and acumen with trauma informed coaching techniques, and she empowers individuals and organisations with tools and strategies that are rooted in compassion and resilience. So welcome Marcia.
Marcia Hylton:Thank you. Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here, Steph.
Steph Edusei:Thank you for inviting me. No problem at all. And, marsha, I mean we had a kind of a little bit of an introduction to you there, but but tell us about you and your background and how you've kind of got to this point that you're at now.
Marcia Hylton:Okay, so my background, as I said, is nursing, so I was a nurse and I also retrained as a physician associate, so I practised medicine and more recently within hepatology. So it was a cute liver disease and stage liver disease, but also alongside my professional work, from a personal perspective, I was also and I'll be transparent, but I was a victim of domestic abuse and emotional abuse as well, so that's how I became involved really. So over the years, I've worked with a lot of women in women's groups looking at recovery from trauma the trauma that's caused through those emotional aspects of the relationships that they were in, and that's really how I have come to be in the place that I am right now.
Steph Edusei:Yeah, and thank you for sharing that. I mean, I think that it's to be able to survive that experience. It is one thing, but then to be able to use that to be able to heal yourself but also then go on to help other people is that part of your healing process, do you think?
Marcia Hylton:helping others, I believe that it is, and it's always been, something that I've done. I think, just being able to listen to other women's stories because it is predominantly women that I that I serve and to be able to just assist them and to help them to have those aha moments about how they can, you know, build resilience, you know, to be able to move forward with the lives, because, particularly around emotional trauma and narcissistic abuse, that kind of trauma keeps people stuck. You know, if you've heard of the um flight fight and freeze, there's also other things, you know, like falling and and flopping as well, and a lot of the times women find themselves in that falling, so they've tried everything to to recover or to escape, and when they get to that falling place, it's where you just give up, you just allow things to happen. You become a people pleaser. You're doing everything to please other people, just so that you're not upsetting the apple cart.
Marcia Hylton:And for me, my work is around helping women to move past that, to understand that they are worthy, you know, to understand that they can heal and that it is possible to to move past that, and because that had been my experience and I was able to do that. But of course we need help to do that. So I mean, I did have therapy, I did educate myself around that, but sometimes it is hard to to get to that place and my job is to help women get to that place where they can start the journey to, to move on with the lives yeah, yeah, and I mean you.
Steph Edusei:You know you've come from a clinical um, a medical background. I've worked in the NHS. Trauma is a really interesting word, isn't it? Because if you're in the kind of the health um, the physical health side of health services, trauma is a very particular thing. You know we have major trauma centres. It's normally linked to some kind of physical injury. Tell us what you mean when you're talking about trauma okay.
Marcia Hylton:So, just as you say, you know, people tend to think of trauma as this physical thing, this major horrific event, that that happens, um, but trauma is more than that. Trauma isn't necessarily about the event. In fact it's not about the event that's happened, it's about our emotional responses to that event. When we have the what I would term big tea traumas, just like you know the, the horrific, horrific event that everybody can see, you can understand why people would have traumas. But then there's what I call the, the little tea traumas, where it's the everyday drip drip of everyday life. So it could be if someone's in you know, toxic relationship, it's the drip drip of being um undermined, you know, feeling unworthy. Or it could be somebody going through a divorce, or it could be financial difficulties that people are having.
Marcia Hylton:All of these cause the drip, drip, drip of traumas, of these little tea traumas. But what happens? Over a period of time they build up and will have just the same effect as the big tea traumas. So you still have those um, you know the the effects of trauma in that way and that can show up um physically. So people will have um, you know the, the, the physiological responses. So it'd be. You know the increased heart rate. You know um joint and muscle pain. You know autoimmune, um breakdown, you know. And then there's the emotional side of that, so you know it might be that they they're not sleeping very well at night. You know they may be withdrawn, you know. So there's, there's all of these things that that come together that can indicate and you know, show, that actually this person might be having, you know, effects of some form of trauma.
Steph Edusei:So understanding that and it's, it's really interesting. As you're talking, then you can tell me whether this is an example or not. And it it's quite a. I suppose some people might think it's a bit of a flippant thing. And I was talking, I was doing a talk yesterday and talked about hair and hair's a big thing to me at the minute. And, um, so I have and you'll be the same for decades of had random people who will just touch your hair and it's dot to the point now. But if my partner puts his hand in my hair, I have this really quite extreme physical and emotional reaction to that. So you know, last night we're sitting on the sofa and he I mean, he knows as well, so you kind of, but he kind of went like that to my hair and I just looked at him like that. You went, oh sorry, it touched your hair. Is that? I mean, is that one of those very small little things that just keeps tripping? Like I say, it's quite a kind of you know frivolous thing, I suppose.
Marcia Hylton:But well, you see, the thing is they're not frivolous, because you know, if you trace that back to when, the first time that happens, when somebody is touching your hair, um, what is that signalling to you? You know so that was a trigger. So you know, when people have done those things in the past, your interpretation of that has been a negative one, and so you carry that. You carry that with you. So even if somebody you know, like your partner, is touching your hair, that that will be a trigger that kind of sends you back to to that time and it's done unconsciously. And until we kind of work on those things, we do get triggered. Things will trigger us, and I could give you an example as well.
Marcia Hylton:Um, I had a client who had had, um, you know, a toxic relationship and she's, you know, doing really well and she's, she's getting on with her life, and but what she said? She called me out of the blue recently and, um, she was crying down the phone and, um, so when, what? So it came about that what had happened? She worked in, um, an insurance company and somebody had called her to complain and was really, really rude. But what happened was the tone of this man's voice, this slow talking and just the rudeness and the insulting that he poured down the phone to her triggered her massively. It just took her down a rabbit hole and she'd been out of that relationship now for you know, good five years. But it was just that and normally she was able to cope with good things, but the trigger was the fact that his voice sounded very similar to her ex-partner's voice.
Steph Edusei:So it's really those are the things that that can trigger, yeah, yeah yeah, and I suppose you know, in the context of of black or year um for people of color, for black people, there is a very clear um experience that we would have of racism and I think, again, it's really interesting in the context of the way that you've described trauma, because a lot of people think of a racist attack, for one to a better word, as being something quite violent. You know lots of shouting, horrible words, all of that type of thing and very noticeable, but for a lot of us that's not what we have at all. It's something a lot um, a lot more subtle. It's that experience of and it's it is that when you were saying that drip, drip, drip, it's those little small incivilities, those small instance that happen over and over again, that we think at the time are they too insignificant to flag Right?
Marcia Hylton:absolutely yeah, it's a really. I think most black people can relate to that, and certainly from my experience, it can actually make you feel ill. And certainly I remember being in a particular workplace many years ago where this was actually happening to me. So I can draw on my own experience and that this was happening to me on a daily basis, to the point where I actually started to doubt my own capability to do the job that I was employed to do. It was a job that I loved and I've done for years, and you know, certain people just made it to the point that I don't know what to do anymore, to the point where I had to go off sick and subsequently was kind of chased out of the job in a way.
Marcia Hylton:Then. But yes, it's this and it's how we cope with this. There is nowhere for us to go sometimes, and so and that's the thing that needs to change and certainly within within organisations, there should be a way that we're able to to address that, and I think that's where trauma in form practice is something that is really what most organisations should be working towards, and it's that whole sort of intersectionality, isn't it when? When you're in the work environment or working in a particular organisation, because it's an added complex layer to everything that we, that we're going through. So you've got to think about. You're thinking about you know our race, the intersectionality of you, know gender as well, you know disability, you know sexual orientation all of these mental health, all of these things come into play and those are really important issues that that really do need need addressing.
Steph Edusei:Yeah, and actually it was interesting that you brought that up because I was wondering whether so for you, in that situation that you shared there, you were already dealing with the trauma from your relationship, but then you've got this treatment at work and and do they layer and and kind of compound each other in this way?
Marcia Hylton:Yeah, absolutely, because you've got things around. You know feeling worthy. You know there's a lot of shame attached to that as well. There's the whole thing around whether you're actually capable, because there are parallels. There are parallels when you're in the work situation and that's happening, and then you're dealing with stuff at home, with within your personal relationship. The two do into, interlock, the do overlap. So you do feel so it is compounded and this you know. Sometimes it feels like there's nowhere, nowhere to go with all of that. So yeah, so yeah.
Steph Edusei:Okay, so you mentioned trauma informed practice. What, what on earth is trauma informed practice Right?
Marcia Hylton:Okay, so trauma informed practice really is. It's been informed by neuroscience, by psychology, by the social sciences, and it includes what we call trauma attachment theory as well. So there's something called ACES. You know adverse childhood experiences. So this is whole sort of framework around around that and recognizing that when you have had an adverse childhood experience, that that actually can can follow you into into adulthood and can affect the way that you show up in the world.
Marcia Hylton:So organizations now to become trauma informed, it's about actually aligning your values, your organizations values, with the principles of trauma informed practice. So there are quite a few, but there are six kind of predominant ones that that we, that we use. So we might be talking about, about safety. So so you have safety, you have choice, you have trustworthiness, you have empowerment, you have collaboration and also cultural considerations as well. So if we take each one, so if we're talking about safety from a trauma informed perspective for organizations, then it's about looking at the person's life in all their context, so whether that's, you know, family and the social, you know. So looking at the physical, all of that and keeping them safe. So it's making sure that you know that they're safe and that within the organization, you know we as staff, you know, help people to help them, to assist them, to ask for what the need. You know that, they know that they're safe. You know making sure that our policies and protocols, safeguarding etc.
Marcia Hylton:All of those are done in such a way that we are maintaining, you know, patient or client safety and what we want to do along that is to prevent retraumatization. We don't want to be retraumatizing people. And one of the key things with trauma informed practice is that when we you know, if I look at it in the context of healthcare and say a person has come to the GP, for example, and we've all heard stories of, you know, aggressive patients that come in through you know, to the reception and shouting at receptionists and all of that, you know normally the response would be you know what's wrong with that person. You know trauma informed practice looks at it, puts a different lens on it. So we're looking at what happened to that person to make them respond in that way and what can we do to to temper that for them and to help them through. So those are all about safety. And then there's about trustworthiness.
Steph Edusei:Yeah, just want to sit with safety just for a second. So I think it's really interesting. I've seen some stuff recently on social media from various things and you know what, if you're anything like me, you'll see something and you go, you go into the comments thinking, well, of course everybody's going to think the same way as me and I've been quite shocked by some of the comments in the so examples of employers not recognizing that their employees have a life outside of work and that that will impact on how they are in work and this kind of thing of we're a business here. What the phrase that really triggered me was we're a business, not a charity, and being a charity chief executive, you, you have to be really careful with your margins as a charity.
Steph Edusei:You know it's it's not kind of a really cozy thing to be running. It's a lovely thing to be running, but it's not cozy. And but this whole idea of it's almost like you're a machine at work and you don't have emotions, you don't have thoughts and you don't have an outside life that might impact on how you are at work. And actually that idea, the way you describe safety there is actually as, as employers and as organizations, we need to recognize that whole person, because that whole person and what goes on inside and outside of work impact on how they are when they turn up to do that.
Marcia Hylton:Absolutely yeah.
Steph Edusei:Sorry, go ahead, oh, carry on.
Marcia Hylton:Now I would, you know, for me, I think that's such an important thing and it just shows that, you know, sometimes organizations can be.
Marcia Hylton:You know, for me that that that there's a resistance there around, around change, and that's why it's important for leadership to be all starts from the top, and it's leadership that needs to be able to to bring those, those changes in so that we're not traumatizing us, because ultimately, there's something around, around self care as well, you know.
Marcia Hylton:You know for our staff to be, you know, looked after, that, that whole well being of staff, and that's something that needs to be brought into into their policies and procedures and protocols as well. And this, you know, it's how do we get organizations to buy into this whole thing around trauma informed practice, you know. And so for me, it's really about educating, to let organizations know that actually this is the way to, to go in terms of being more productive, and it's organizations to take on, you know, the mantle of being trauma informed, because it enhances their business at the end of the day, you know. But I think it is about educating, it is about, you know, leaders, people in leadership, and being able to to, to buy into that and to have that commitment from them to be able for that to filter down through through their organizations.
Steph Edusei:I love that example you gave of the kind of doctors receptionist, because I don't know if they still call it that, but they used to have the violent patient scheme. So if you were aggressive in a, in a clinical environment, verbally aggressive, so let's say you swore you could be put onto the violent patient register and then you had to go and find a new GP you practices that were employed to deal with the violent patients and that it's very much was don't get me wrong, not condoning any kind of aggression against staff, because actually that in itself is trauma, but there is something about, as you say, taking that time to go. Why is this person so angry? What is it that's fueling this? What is it that we can do to help support and diffuse that, rather than just labeling somebody as difficult and that's that, be that a customer, a patient or a member of staff? And because we all know that people have been labeled as difficult and, actually, thinking about it, was there some trauma going on there that that we just weren't seeing?
Marcia Hylton:Absolutely, yeah, absolutely, and I think I think it's really important that we you know to be more trauma informed rather than being more directive. You know the old, traditional way of working you know is becoming obsolete. You know, when we talk about working in a more directive way, it's about you know people. You know if you take the health care, for example, or within education or wherever, where the bosses are the authority and the patient or the client doesn't know anything, so it's all about them. That has to change and I think, to be fair, I think change is happening. I think more and more organisations are looking at how they can become more trauma informed and I think one of the things as well is building trust, and that's one of the other principles of trauma informed practice. It's about having you know, getting To be trustworthy so that clients and patients, whoever's coming through your doors, can feel that. And it's about staff explaining what they're going to do and why they're doing it. Going back to that thing about directive care, for example you're just doing things to people and they don't know why it's being done. It's having those conversations, explaining, getting patients or clients involved in their care as well and also making sure that you do what you say you're going to do. Make sure that you do what you say you're going to do and that any expectations are met, but not to over-promise either, because I think that's another thing. If we over-promise and then can't deliver, the trust right, there is broken. And I think one of the other principles is choice Getting patients and clients involved in their care, getting them involved in their care. It's a shared thing. Listening to the needs of the people that you're working with, whether that's informal or formal. It might be that you have peer groups, people that have experienced the same thing. Having them together Because you can learn from each other. One of the things that I do with my work, with my coaching I do group coaching and having other people who have shared similar experiences can be really good to bounce off each other and aid healing I am.
Marcia Hylton:One of the things that I would be really cautious about is making sure in all of this that we're not re-traumatising people, especially when they don't want to be rehashing their stories all the time. That's really unhelpful, because we know that especially trauma emotional trauma affects the neuroplasticity of the brain. So we have these neural pathways. So if you imagine the brain, the neural pathway as maybe like a little dirt road. So it's very, very small, a small road, and imagine that you're driving along this road day in, day out. Traffic is coming down this road and what happens? It gets wider and wider. And it's the same with the neural pathways in terms of trauma.
Marcia Hylton:If we look at it from a trauma perspective, something happens and you have this dirt path, this, so you're going to respond and act in a particular way Rehashing the story is just driving down that road again and you're rehashing the story. Rehashing the story and that becomes wider, so you're affected by the trauma in a bigger way and where is the healing in that? So we don't want to keep doing that, but we want to give people opportunities to be able to reframe their stories. If they're going to be talking about that, then it's about reframing and taking the learnings from what happened to them so that they were able to use those resources that they had to bring them to the place where they're at now. So it's taking if we're going to be looking at the story, then making sure that it's done safely and taking those inner resources that they had at the time of the event and bringing that into the here and now, so taking the there and then into the here and now and use that as a starting point for healing well-being.
Steph Edusei:And that I think, particularly in the context of race and ethnicity, is really important. I think that one of the things organisations tend to do is, when there is an allegation made of some kind of discrimination, you have to keep telling your story, don't you? So tell us again and what went and really kind of drilling down and drilling down and drilling down, and, as you say, it's that that process is then just reinforcing what happened and the impacts it's the impacts of what happened, isn't it Absolutely? You know, there have been times when I have relived experiences that I've had and it's almost as if it's been happening there, and then Absolutely. And but the other thing that we do as organisations, particularly in Black History Month, is they kept people like you and I on and wanted us to tell our stories, or we turned, they turned to colleagues in the organisations tell us about all of your horrible experiences and how bad it is to be a Black person.
Steph Edusei:And there is that element then of actually you are just reinforcing that trauma Absolutely, particularly if people feel pressurised to do that. So I, when I share my stories, I only share what I'm comfortable to share. First of all, and I'm doing it from, I think, what you were talking about. It's that more positive perspective of actually people can learn from it, and I know how I've seen my resilience through that and I've seen how I've grown and developed from that. So I'm doing it from quite a positive place. But actually that's not necessarily the position that people are being and I really recognise the kind of the power and the privilege that I have in being able to do that. So I think you're absolutely right. We've got to be so careful when we are asking people to share experiences, as to how we do that and whether we even need them to do that.
Marcia Hylton:Absolutely. I think that just reminds me of somebody said to me and I know that this is not unique to that person you know when, every time Black History Month comes round, it's oh, can you do something for Black History Month? And it's like, well, actually, no, I don't want to, and so there's this kind of pressure that you must do something. You're Black, therefore you set something up.
Steph Edusei:Yeah, and actually it's that experience of othering, isn't it? Yes, you are different and this month is about you, and I'm sure it's exactly the same for Pride Month and Disabled Awareness Month. So, yeah, remember how you're different. Well, we want you to do something for us about your difference, Absolutely. I mean, that is kind of at the root of Black all year. It's that. Well, you know what you keep showing me, that I'm different all year round, but you're only interested in that once a year, absolutely. And then you put me back in the cupboard and forget about that difference. And then you bring me out in March, because I'm a woman in March. I'm not a woman in October, I'm a woman in March, international Women's Day. You know it's all that bizarre stuff, yeah, so so it is really kind of people. I think, with the steps you're talking about, I'm sitting here thinking, oh, that's really simple and it's not, is it? It's not simple to have that trauma-informed approach. Yeah, yeah, so we've had safety, we've had trust, there was.
Marcia Hylton:There was choice, and I think I think we talked about, you know, giving, you know, service users a voice to be able to, you know, to be part of the care that they're receiving and, you know, being able to have their needs being listened to as well. And I think the other thing as well, one of the other principles, is around collaboration. We talked about that, I think. So that can be formal or informal, and is another important one. You know, support, Sorry.
Steph Edusei:I'm sorry I keep interrupting, but it's so much in. This choice is an interesting one from an employment and thinking. You know I was saying about these things that pop up on social media. The issue was around childcare and being able to work from home and, in effect, the choice to work from home had been taken away from this woman because the company had decided they weren't going. All of a sudden, they weren't going to allow people to work from home anymore because they were putting the washing on. So what?
Steph Edusei:And I think from an employee perspective as well. You know, some of us are really fortunate. We have a lot of choice about what we do, when we do it, to an extent, the hours that we work and things like that, but there are an awful lot of people who have very little choice at all, and it's the you do this, you do it in this way, you do it in that place, you do it at these hours, and you have no control over the environment in which you work. So then, for for an organisation to think about how do we bring choice and choice of things into that workplace it could be quite challenging, I would imagine.
Marcia Hylton:Absolutely. It goes back to what I was saying earlier about resistance If you've done, you know, if it ain't broke, you know why change it. So sometimes they will have that, that, that sort of mentality. And again, it really is about educating those that are in leadership roles, you know, and it is about actually changing their thought processes about how they work, how they see their. You know their employees, you know, and I guess it's getting past that all directive way of working and working in a more collaborative way.
Marcia Hylton:And again, it's about putting those things into policies, you know, maybe a conversation with HR about how they can support their staff, and that's all part and parcel of staff well-being as well. So, you know, if they, if they are committed to to staff well-being, then that is something that they will need to consider. The world is changing since COVID 2020, you know people are working in a completely different way to how it was prior. So you know they, we have to kind of move with the times as well. So, and I think, if organizations are not prepared to take on the mantle of being trauma informed, then they ultimately, in the long term, their business, will suffer.
Steph Edusei:That's what I think. Yeah, definitely. If anybody's got any questions or comments that they'd like to make, then either raise your hand or pop it in the chat box and we can come to them. So, Marcia, carry on. I interrupt.
Marcia Hylton:I guess the other principle is around empowerment, and again it's that whole thing around choice. It's about supporting people to make those choices. That's the empowerment, helping them to do that. And then again we did touch on this earlier around the cultural considerations as well, and I'm kind of thinking from the health perspective. We need to be considering the stereotypes and the biases around that. Even things like healing, recognizing the value of traditional healing, bringing all of these things, so taking on what might be traditional to different cultures, different ethnicities, bringing that in because they all have value.
Marcia Hylton:And I think sometimes we focus so much on the medical model that this is how things have to be. But actually for me, I think it's wonderful to see a blend of the two. Obviously, we still have to remain evidence-based because we don't want to hurt people, but I think considering those traditional values respects the person, respects their belief systems, their values, and that actually helps to create a better working relationship. It helps. So those are kind of like the six main principles that's got to be foundational. And when you're looking at your policies within an organization or you're looking at your own organizational values, how does that align with those six principles, those major, the main ones there are others, but those are the main ones and making sure that your values, your organizational values, align with that, then you're on your way to come in. You know, trauma-informed organization, yeah.
Steph Edusei:And just to go back to that, those kind of the cultural what was the description, the word that you use? Cultural, those cultural values, traditional considerations, yeah, that whole, and it can be vast, can't it? Yeah, from things around religion, culture and practice, just really small things and interactions that might mean that the way in which so the one that's just come to mind is that actually I remember somebody was being interviewed for a role and they were of Nigerian heritage, so I think left Nigeria as an adult and had been in the UK for a long time and some of the feedback was how formal this person was. They were very formal and quite cold and they weren't sure that that person was actually had the kind of the, the kind of skills that they were looking for and the softer skills I hate that term because actually they're a lot more difficult but you know, those softer skills that they were looking for, but actually they displayed all of the other skills that they were needed. So they did go back and have a conversation with them and they said we just felt you were quite cold and formal and business like in the interview. And the person responded but that's how I thought that you needed to be in interviews. That was the way that they'd been brought up in that West African culture.
Steph Edusei:It is when you're in a work environment, and particularly in an interview environment, that's the way that you would behave. And of course, nowadays a lot of workplaces are a lot more relaxed and less hierarchical and things like that. The another example is around this deference to older people or to people who are more senior, and actually that can lead to lots of problems in a workplace environment. So in some cultures you would never dare challenge anybody who was of a higher and the hierarchy to you or older than you. You give them that deference. But it can this is, it can cause huge problems that then become your problem because you didn't challenge that person, rather than that person who was doing the wrong thing and that ability to understand that some of that may have been at play there. Rather than just being you didn't, you didn't pull that person up when they were doing the wrong thing, absolutely.
Marcia Hylton:And that's that's so important. And I guess the question then is is how do we get around that? And I think it is about those things that we just talked about having looking at those stereotypical biases, you know, looking at how you know we can integrate, integrate properly in the workplace, so we're not having those, those stereotypical, you're breaking those, those biases. It's working towards that and I think it's it's educating or helping you know people of you know of colour, to be able to challenge. You know it's changing that trajectory really, that you know it's okay to to, to challenge. And I think there's a lot of work that needs to be done, particularly in places like HR you know, particularly being able to help people to be able to actually go and have a conversation with you know their, their superiors, their bosses, you know the person in senior management or in the senior role and actually, you know I'd like to think that it's that can be resolved in that way, but it is, it is and I still think that that still goes on.
Marcia Hylton:I believe that that's that that continues to go on, and I think it's about again being trauma informed. You know you're able to put policies in place that helps people to be able to, to come forward, or it's about education. One of the things that I think is really important is about educating, educate, staff training so people understand these things. It is about training. It's about putting policies not just putting policies in place, but actually training. It's about helping people to understand what may be happening. So I think that's an important aspect that I wouldn't want to miss is is is training and education, and that needs to be top of the list as well.
Steph Edusei:Yeah, and and as you say, I mean, if we just go back to that thing about challenging people and authority there, is that okay. So actually you may be told that, taught and brought up you don't do that, particularly if they're older than you. But also then if you are, for example, a person of color and that person in authority is white, then there could be a whole load of other trauma around experience, previous experiences of when that's happened. That may stop you and and I suppose that's what you're saying is that's the importance of having that trauma informed practices that you you look at that person holistically as to why that may be difficult, and and it's not just about that person, which I like, it's about the whole organization. So how does the organization need to change what? What training do people in those positions of authority, for example, need to be able to encourage and make people feel safe and supported, to challenge Right?
Marcia Hylton:So the whole thing around education and training, and I think it is about raising awareness about trauma, what that actually looked like and how that will manifest. So it's raising, raising that awareness of having you know, formal trauma, training and education within your organization or your company, its effects, so people understand the effect of trauma, and it should focus on those, those principles that I just talked about. It's ensuring that leadership do have a commitment to, to organizational change and that all should be evidenced in their policies and protocols, I think, and they need to be clear, they need to. I think there's also something around having safe environments as well. So having that safe space where, where people can go, that it's welcoming and calm, all of those things that need to be in place. And having places where people that you just described can go. If they're not ready to go to leadership, you know to to talk about these things. Having a safe space where they can go to talk about what, what you know, what the issues that they faced, and to to work and to be able to have strategies, you know, to be able to approach senior management but be supported to do that, so they're not just just going off on their own, but yet to having something in place that would support that.
Marcia Hylton:I think it's about communication as well. You know, having the, you know communication practices, having a look at that and what that might look like. And again, it's about training staff to be non-judgmental, you know, training staff to have empathy. I mean, sometimes empathy is not something you can just train and have, but it's, it's raising that awareness that you know to be empathic, because I think most of us, you know, do have that, but it's if we, if we don't know, we can't necessarily show that. Yeah, so it's around. It's around the training and to to be judgmental, around that as well, I think is really important. It's about listening and validating that. You know that person's experience. We have to validate, you know, not rubbish the experience that they've had. So I think that's that's really important.
Marcia Hylton:And there might be that you, you know the organization might want to implement some trauma specific interventions, so it could be something around. You know, some form of of therapy, maybe, some therapy, possibly, and I'm thinking particularly within the health. So it might be something called EMDR. I think that's eye movement, desensitising, reprogramming, I think that's what that's called. Or some other type of mindfulness is another one just to help to damp down people's nervous systems as well. So I think those things are really important as well. And again it's that whole I don't know respect for boundaries as well as another one. So recognising that these people may have experienced trauma, but also recognising the boundaries around that as well, yeah, so I think I think, and to be culturally sensitive, that's the thing you know within this, you know, and they need to be telling them, their approaches really to accommodate that and to just respect the diverse perspectives that are in their business, you know, in their organisations. Yeah, and I have to play with that as well.
Steph Edusei:Yeah, as you're talking, Marcia, I'm sitting in that.
Steph Edusei:I'm recalling all of the moments throughout my career where there might have been some trauma there and I didn't pick up on it, and simple things like saying to somebody oh, you should go and tell them, yeah, and not thinking about just what might have made that so hard and I was about to start going.
Steph Edusei:Oh my God, I've been so terrible. But actually I had to bring my favourite, my Andrew Lukapult, to mind, which was do the best that you can until you know better, and when you know better, do better. And I think that's the thing for a lot of organisations they don't know about this, yeah, and because they don't know, they're not doing. And what I'm hoping, through things like this and the work that you're doing, is that organisations know that the impact of trauma and what it can do and the fact that there is something called trauma and fall practice can actually start getting organisations and companies to learn about it and start changing their practice, start doing better, not beat themselves up because they didn't do it in the past, but really go OK. So how do we, how do we capture that and do it now and support people now.
Marcia Hylton:Yeah, absolutely, I think it's. I mean, there's no time like the present is what I would say, and it really is about the trainings that they understand about. I think that's first and foremost, you know, training and putting the policies in place and actually knowing whether it's worked or not. So there's this stuff around feedback and continuous improvement. So you can, it's not, you know you do it one time. It's actually doing it in a way that is a continuous process. You're making adjustments as needed, so there will need to be, you know, those feedback from the people in your workplace. There's something around what I would say accountability as well, to make sure that the organisations are, and it doesn't have to be in a way where organisations feel like they're being. You know we don't want that, but it's a process that everybody can be involved in and ultimately, when that's in place, when you have those systems in place, it's a win-win. That's how I look at it. And also, making sure that you know self-care and wellbeing is there's a big thing already, but making sure that that's still part and parcel of how an organisation can become trauma-informed as well, supporting your staff. You know, because it's, you know, because it's new, there might be some resistance to all of that. So making sure that staff feel supported and not judged as well, you know, because what we're doing we're just moving away from maybe some traditional archaic ways of being, we're just upgrading, and so you know, and I guess it's how you bring it to your staff, you know, and that everybody benefits as well, because your staff members also might be, you know, affected by trauma in some way. I don't think there's anybody really on the planet that hasn't experienced some form of trauma. So I think it's an important thing. Some of your staff members might actually be survivors themselves. So it's making sure that everybody feels safe and that you can and that staff can actually cope with the emotional demands of their jobs, particularly in the healthcare industry. Now I'll speak from that.
Marcia Hylton:I remember an occasion where I had a consultant. He was Irish, a really, really lovely man, and he had this kind of personality, you know, and he was very, you know, and it didn't always go down so well with all patients, you know. And I remember doing a ward round with this particular consultant. He was very good at his job and he was one of the patients, was a young lady and she just wasn't connecting with him at all. But he recognised that because when we moved from her bed he came up to me and said oh, maciej, I'm really concerned about this. Pull up a chair and go and have a conversation with her. You know, because he was really concerned.
Steph Edusei:That was going on.
Marcia Hylton:For him and for me, when I look back on that, that was trauma. He was using a trauma-informed way of being. That was a trauma-informed practice that he was doing going to sit with this person, you know, being empathic he was saying to me. He was saying that there's more to this than what she's saying and he's saying I'm not the right person, but you might be able to help her. And we had a long conversation. I drew up a chair, pulled the curtains around and I was there for a while and it turned out that this patient was on her own in the UK. She was from somewhere, I forget Eastern Europe somewhere, and she was on her own. She had liver disease and it was a scary time for her, but she couldn't relate to him and his personality. It's not about changing your personality, but it's about recognizing your own scope of practice where you can help this person. If it means calling somebody else in to do it. That's all part and parcel of trauma-informed practice, so that your patient, your client, is getting the best care.
Steph Edusei:And.
Marcia Hylton:I'll always remember that. Being honest and reliable and maintaining clear communication with staff members, with patients, clients Again, you're building trust. So these are ways that organizations can start the process of becoming trauma-informed. And at the heart of it is the patient, who is the client, making sure that their unique needs are being met, just like in that example that I've just given that lady, that young girl's unique needs were being met because I was able to pull up a chair, hear her story and actually make sure that things are in place to support her. And sometimes that can be missed. I know from my own experience when I was working in hepatology. It was almost like a revolving door. You get patients medically fit for discharge and then you discharge them and then they come back. So you have this we've not recognized the trauma that's brought them back. So how do we fix that? How do we make our ward trauma-informed so we're taking in the whole patient, not just getting them medically fit for discharge? So those are the things that we need to consider.
Steph Edusei:And if we think about that in the context of employees as well, we know at the minute just how difficult it is to recruit and how expensive it is. If you lose an experienced member of staff, it's going to be months until you get somebody in and up to their level of performance. So, actually, if we can make sure that staff and colleagues feel seen and heard and understood and supported and safe, they are going to stay, and they're not just going to stay and plod on, they're going to stay and they're going to thrive and that's good for everybody. So, yeah, I think you're right.
Steph Edusei:The other thing that you said that I don't want to miss is that you said policies are really important but they're not everything, and you then went on to describe all of the other stuff. So I think there is that danger that people go right, done the policies, tick, move on, and from what you're saying, it's so so much more than that. Absolutely, marcia, we're virtually out of time. I'm going to ask you to give the six again, the six key areas again, and then I'm going to have to wrap up. So what were those six areas again that we should be looking at?
Marcia Hylton:OK, safety Safety for your clients, making sure that they have a safe space, whether that's physically, emotionally, even the environment that they're in trustworthiness. Doing what you say you're going to do and when you're going to do it. Not over promising either Choice involving your patient or your client with choice. Let them be part of that process in their own health and well-being. Empowerment empowering patients or clients to help with their own health. Empower them to look at their be involved in their own healing as well. It's not directive, it's a collaborative approach, which is the next one, which is being able to collaborate. So, whether that's with your peers, helping them to connect with like-minded other patients, but collaborate with their own health and well-being, with their own care. And also cultural considerations checking that what does that look like for you and your organisation? Yeah, so those are the six in a beautiful picture.
Steph Edusei:So thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us. I know that this has been literally just skipping over the surface of the subject and that you do much deeper work with individuals and organisations, so thank you so much. As I said, this will be available as a podcast and on YouTube. So if you are watching this on YouTube or listening to the podcast, please like and subscribe. We have got an event coming up in November, monday 27th of November, and it's all about internalised oppression and I can tell you I had great fun when I was putting together the graphics for that and I almost put a certain politician in there, but I decided that would just be going a little bit too far. But really looking forward to exploring internalised oppression in the context of Black or Year. So thank you again so much, martha. It's just really really lovely speaking with you and thank you everybody, take care.
