Black All Year - Breaking Boundaries: Life Lessons from the UK's First Black Police Commissioner

Have you ever wondered what it takes to break barriers, change power dynamics and make an impact in the face of adversity? Listen to Steph Edusei in  conversation with Festus Akinbusoye, the UK's first black Police and Crime Commissioner. Festus's remarkable journey, from his youthful days in Nigeria, through a harsh reality in London, to one of the highest-ranking positions in UK law enforcement, is filled with grit, resilience, and never accepting 'no' for an answer.

This episode uncovers Festus's fight against racial discrimination in business and politics, including the uphill journey of securing a business loan, running for chairman of the Conservative constituency, and his transformation into a powerful voice challenging power dynamics. We shed light on controversial issues, such as the tactic of stop and search, its disproportionate impact on Black and ethnically minoritised populations, and the urgent need to address the root causes of crime.

Finally, we explore how Festus's early life experiences fuelled his determination to succeed. His story emphasizes the importance of not giving up on your dreams, no matter the obstacles. Tune in for a powerful conversation that not only offers a glimpse into the life of a man who rose above adversity but also inspires, challenges, and encourages listeners to make a difference and make their voices heard. This episode is filled with wisdom, inspiration, and a testament to the power of hope and resilience.

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Original music by Wayne C McDonald, #ActorSlashDJ

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Original music by Wayne C McDonald, #ActorSlashDJ
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Chapters

• 0:23 Celebrating Black Achievement and Challenges
• 11:02 Overcoming Challenges in Business and Politics
• 17:37 Navigating Power Dynamics and Upholding Voices
• 29:49 Exploring Racism, Politics, and Personal Beliefs
• 41:49 The Controversy of Stop and Search
• 48:51 Addressing Root Causes of Crime
• 1:01:30 Empowerment and Resilience for Success

Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Festus, Black, country, stop and search, police, disproportionality, PCC, Police and Crime Commissioner, London, politics

SPEAKERS

Festus Akinbusoye, Steph Edusei

Steph Edusei  00:07

Hello, and welcome to everybody. And I'm Steph Edusei. And I just wanted to quickly say Welcome to Black All Year. And I'm the creator of Black All Year and it was set up to remind everyone that Black issues and challenges, our achievements and experiences happen all year round and not just in Black History Month. If you have missed any of our previous events, they are available on YouTube and as a podcast, and we do have some special podcast only material. And if you're watching or listening after this event, it'd be great if you could like and subscribe because it will mean that you get access to the material, but it also helps others to see that too. Now I have great pleasure in introducing our guests for today. Festus Akinbusoye and apologies if I've mispronounced that, I did look up how to pronounce it. So I think I hope they got it right. And Festus was born in Nigeria, and he lived there until 13, when his family was forced to leave for the UK following a military coup. And after settling in London, he went on to complete a bachelor's degree in not at the age of  13.  And   He’s not quite that advanced in business communications from the London College of printing and distributive trades, and a master's degree in International Studies and diplomacy at the School of Oriental and African Studies. Now in 2021, Festus was elected as the Police and Crime Commissioner for Bedfordshire making him the UK is first Black PCC and the country's only current PCC from an ethnically minoritized background. Prior to his election, he became a Special Constable and undertook duties which included frontline responds duties. Festus, you're also a director on the board of the YMCA. And that order saw the delivery of housing and other support to vulnerable young people. And then as a conservative politician, Festus has worked as a senior Parliamentary Assistant to three MPs stood for election as a constituency MP and was chair of Milton Keynes conservatives, from 2018 to 2021. So welcome Festus. It's really great that you've been able to spare the time to talk with us. And I think I said in some of the trails for this that one of the things I've always wanted to do with Black All Year is to celebrate success and achievement and not just talk about issues. And I think this is a really nice way of bringing both of those together. But I think first of all, we do have to acknowledge your achievement of being elected as PCC, as a Black man. So, congratulations for that. I just wanted to wonder if you could share a little bit about your background and your journey and kind of how you ended up standing to be Police and Crime Commissioner.

Festus Akinbusoye  02:59

I need to clarify something. I'm no longer on the board of the YMCA. I'm now on the board of the College of policing, and a couple of other policing related boards. But so I stood down  as a YMCA board member, I think Christmas last year, the AGM Well, like you rightly say that I came to England when I was about 13 years old, sitting on the council estate in East London, with my dad and my twin sister and my mom. And that was quite a culture shock. Not in terms of the people that surrounded me, but in terms of the change in, the quality of life. We came from a relatively affluent in a middle-class family in Nigeria. I tell people that I never washed a dish in my life until I came to England, because everything well, we had a housemaid we had a driver or a chauffeur, as we call over here. Everything was done. We live in a house that had about 24 bedrooms. I mean, we live in a really good life. And then the situation happened in Nigeria at the time you come to England, and Dad came a couple of years before we came to join him. And we thought Dad  was living the life. You know, because that's what you thought everything in England is just great, right? So we come to join Dad  and now  like he's in this two bedroom apartment flat in Upton Park. And me, my twin sister, dad and mom were living in one bedroom. And another family of four occupied the second so there’s the eight of us in a two bedroom flat. And errm that was something I have never experienced before  in my life. So it was quite a Condorcet quite a condescension for for me, a bullet you know, you soon got used to the environment you adapted but unfortunately growing up in that part of London at the time, I got to witness some not very nice things because that any young person should ever be able to see, I was growing up in London at a time when at the height of the National Front, many of you will remember them. That was where I got my first experience of being called the N word, and being chased by the skinheads in Becton. That was quite a frightful experience, if I'm honest with you and I still remember that. That was where I obviously I got to hear about Stephen Lawrence. I'm a good friend of Dwayne Brooks, who was with Stephen at the time. And I remember exactly where I was, when I heard about the death of this young Black boy that had been killed by some white guys. And so it was quite a, it was quite a traumatic environment to grow up in. But somehow, I made it through that. And I looking back now, I had an amazing dad who sadly his passed away. Now he died from cancer of the colon, some years ago, and I still miss him very terribly, he was my idol. I looked up to him in everything, his work ethic, his example, the way he treated my mom, all of that stuff, proved to be foundational for me, in where I am now, and as a Police and Crime Commissioner, I try to erm inculcate some of that in some of my policies, my structures, the way I do things, but also how I treat people that I lead as a Police and Crime Commissioner, or as a businessman that employs about 60 people in my company as well. So I'm just very grateful having that kind of family background and discipline in education and hard work and never given up that kind of attributes, you know, imbibed in me by my parents. 

Steph Edusei  06:43

Yeah.  And it's interesting, because quite often, I have this discussion about how much of the person that I am as a, as a leader, and is, is about is about me, and how much of it is about my cultural heritage? So, from your perspective, do you do believe that some of that you've talked about, for example, your father, was that just because he was a great dad? Or is that about the culture, the Nigerian culture do things? 

Festus Akinbusoye  07:10

Well, I will say, of course, I was a great dad, you know, because he was a knight and I'm trying to follow in his footsteps. And I think I'm pretty I'm doing pretty amazingly well, actually, if you ask me, myself, and I think there's the culture today as well. I mean, in Nigeria, education is not a negotiable thing. You just go to school, you don't question that. You know, you strive to be the best. I mean, my dad went, I mean, my dad, he worked as a cleaner. You know, three cleaning jobs. And just give it some example about why I feel very strongly about what I'm going to say to your audience. Is that so dad when it came over here, I think he was in his 40s or something like that or late 50s. And he was working as a cleaner initially for Thomas Council. And then he was great. He got another job or morning job with Burtons Menswear. If any of you remember Burton's I don't know if they're still in business. I don't know. So, he was doing that was his early morning job as a cleaner with Burton's menswear, then he will go from there to his main job with time as council. And I remember one day he came home, and he said, Well, Festus, I've got another job since you guys keep eating all the food in the house, literally. That's what he said to me. And, and, and then he said, well, I've got another job in the evening. I said, well, so that was that. He said, you know, the new McDonald's has opened a Canning Town. I said, Yes. Because we were living in Canning town at the time. And I thought he's gonna say that he's going to become a manager there. But no, Dad is going to get cleaner again, at the McDonalds  Canning Town, and fancy me going to school. So to my friends, and my dad is now a cleaner in McDonald's. Right? So that was his job. And then about three or four years after that, he said he was going back to school. Now he was I think it was 60 years old. I'm like, Dad, what are you doing this for? And he said, I need to get that qualification to get promotion. I told him this council to become like a porter or something like that. And, you know, dad just taught me a lot growing up. And looking back at him now that he's commitment to education, and just working hard, despite the system that just beat you down, beat you that beats you down. You know what happened, by the way, when he finished, that qualification didn't get promoted anyway. 

Steph Edusei  09:32

Yeah. And Yeah, as you're talking, I can just think of so many of my Ghanaian relatives who, some of them had Master's degrees, and yet they worked as cleaners, and that that thing of multiple jobs and constantly struggling Education, more education, more education in the hope that you would be able to break through is a very, very familiar story to me

Festus Akinbusoye  09:56

 and I'm seeing that I'm looking at myself that my experience has been completely the opposite of what my father experienced. I don't know why, apart from the fact that, you know, we know I'm fortunate I worked, I think I'm pretty good at what I do. And I believe in God is what I think I've been blessed too. But I've always wondered, how come my Dad's experience has been so different to mine? You know, of course, I've had adversity, I've had challenges I've had people telling me to wait for my turn, and all that kind of nonsense, which now, they wouldn't dare tell me that I tell them exactly where to go, exactly where to go. And that's what I advise anyone who's listening to this, if you want to go for something, go for it. Don't let anyone tell you that you should wait for your turn. You know, your turn is where you think that you are ready and have.  But I've always wondered about that, you know, how come my experience has been so different to my father's? You know, and in fact, the very first time I ever saw my father cry was when he had run out of money. And he had to rely on me now I had a small business at a time. And I was having to support him. And for him, that was just, that should not be happening. You know, he's my dad, and he should be supporting me, not me supporting him. So those kinds of things have shaped my politics, shaped, my views on life shapes, my my way of doing this Police and Crime Commissioner. And you know, is I can't change that background. It's just just part and parcel of who I am.

Steph Edusei  11:38

 Yeah. And I mean, you've talked a little bit about some of the challenges that you've had, but really be interested in hearing a bit more about some of those challenges that you've faced as a Black person?

Festus Akinbusoye  11:50

 Really? Do you want to go there? 

Steph Edusei  11:51

Yeah, I think it was actually one of the things that we can do is we can learn from that we can learn from your experience and how you've overcome that or how you've dealt with that. And so both in in kind of, well, obviously, you've said about business, but also in, in politics, and in your current career. You know, could you share some of those challenges that you've had and how you've dealt with them,

Festus Akinbusoye  12:12

Err one that immediately comes to mind, err   the BBC covered this  I think was sometime last year, when I was going to start my third business when I was about 23 years old, the two previous ones had  failed. But because I come from quite an entrepreneurial family, I refuse to say, to accept defeat. So I started I carried on going when I graduate from university, and I had a contract to provide security services to some cinemas. So one company gave me a contract. This was in Woodgreen. And they gave me the contract notes, I took it to a couple of banks look i need  about two and a half grand from you, as a startup loan, to deal with cash flow, to pay my staff's wages, and then my invoice will get paid every month. And by then I'll be able to pay you back in a couple of months anyway. So I went to two or three high street banks, and they all just turned me down. And I remember going to one bank, I won't say which bank it is in the City of London, because I thought it was a big guy. So I'm gonna go to a Threadneedle Street. You know, I had this big dream of having this amazing company that was going to employ lots of people. And it was wonderful to have  let me go to City of London. And so  I went to  this bank, I took my business plan to the lady. She looked at it, and no one ever lie. She said, just sit there Mr Akinbusoye, and I'll come back. So I was just I think 22/23 at the time she went to an office, I still remember the back of my mind now her walk into this room. And about five or 10 minutes, she came back. And she  she said to me, I'm sorry Mr. Akinbusoye   we don't do business with your postcode.

Steph Edusei  13:57

ouch!

Festus Akinbusoye  13:59

Which was something I had never really understood before. I never had come across that before I still live in this kind of perfect world in that path, despite the stuff with the the Neo Nazis in as a teenager in in Becton  at the time. But this was just different. The idea that someone who would not deal with me because of who I am and where I live was just an unlike. Anyway, that nearly broke me. But I remember going to my dad and talking to him about this and he was like, Look, he calls me Kehinde by my Nigerian [name], Kehinde means last time because I'm a twin. Anyway, so Kehinde if you believe in something and you want to do it, you better be willing to take a chance on yourself and do what it takes to get it. And he was kind of harsh like that, you know I didn't say like oh poor you. That was not  my dad. That was not him at all. So I then looked in the yellow pages if anybody remember Yellow Pages and I came across something called the Prince's Trust and to cut long story short, I went to the Prince's Trust. They looked at my business, they were like, This is just a no brainer. They gave me the funding. And they gave me a business mentor. And this business mentor, we're still friends today, more than 25 years later. And James happens to be an executive coach to FTSE 100 companies, CEOs in London. And he was my business mentor that apprentice was gave to me. They got their money back, we're still friends, that company grew from four employees to about 60 employees in 10 years.

Steph Edusei  15:40

So the bank lost out 

Festus Akinbusoye  15:42

Oh in the fact that same bank wrote to me about three years later, asked me if I wanted a half a million pound loan, I put it in the  bin. 

Steph Edusei  15:50

Yeah.

Festus Akinbusoye  15:51

 And that's why the Prince's Trust.  King Charles, when he came to Bedfordshire. Last year, he heard about my story and wanted to meet me to hear about that. So he calls me his graduate. The other story, I will tell you this one when he was in politics  about 2017 or 2018, when I knew there's going to be a vacancy for the Chairman of the conservative Federation, in Milton Keynes. I put my name in the ring that I was to Go for it. I have to for parliament in 2015. I knew my base, I knew about campaigning, I understood politics, I understood the new nuances of leadership within the political environment. And so you go around, you know, asking for support because people vote for the chair. And I remember going to one particular councilor, who then said to me, well, Festus, I think you should wait for your turn. You're not quite ready yet. I said, Okay. Oh, yeah, there's somebody else who's going to be applying, I think he should probably stand step down for me. He  is a Rear Admiral, retired Rear Admiral or something like that. And he's said this or said that and blah, blah, blah. I'm like, okay, really? okay fine  i hear you  ,  so I went, I thought about it, I put my name in the ring. I did my groundwork. And the next thing I knew was this guy stood down. He did not want to face me because he knew he was going to lose. So I won that election, unopposed. And I served, the three, three full terms as chair, and then I stood down the year that actually became PCC. So you can assume the ethnicity of those individuals that I encountered. Whether it was because of my race, I don't know. But I choose to take no for an answer. Because I'm believing myself and what I'm capable of achieving. 

Steph Edusei  17:39

Yeah, I'm just as you've been talking, I've been kind of really curious about. So obviously, your your early years, were quite a privileged upbringing in Nigeria. And I do wonder how much of that has given you this kind of confidence to then just go well, I'm not accepting No, because you've had that grounding of, of advantage. And then and then that very stark contrast when you then came here. Do you think that had any bearing in your results?

Festus Akinbusoye  18:10

I, I don't think so. Because Britain became a leveler. You come over here, and you stole literally from the ground again, everything. Everything around you, is wiped away. I had, the only privilege that I had was that I managed to get get to England as an immigrant. That was it. But once I was here, I was at the bottom of the social ladder, like everybody else that I grew up with Black, white, or Asian, we were all lucky, maybe now not being Black in the US will be at the bottom of the bottom. But you know, there you go. But I really do think a lot of is down to my, to my parents, and  the determination that he gave me. But also there was an element of that that is probably going to just be my own whether I'm just wired. You know, I have failed at several things in my life. I've I've not succeeded a certain several things. But I just there's just something about me that I just refuse to quit. And I work hard. I, I hustle, I'm a hustler. I, I, that's just me. And I'm, and I'm not afraid to fail. I really am not afraid to fail. I'm not afraid to give things a try. I'm not afraid to put my hand up in a meeting where I'm the only Black person in the room for example, amongst people who are so privileged. So out there and say, I'm sorry, guys. I think you're wrong. And here are the reasons why. I have no issues whatsoever. In doing the I've sat in the room, I won't say which Prime Minister, we've come, we've had quite a few in the last couple of months. But I find a room and I said, you know, Prime Minister, I think that is the wrong way of doing things. I think she'd be looking at it this way.   I don't really I don't mind doing. And I think that's probably the reason why I  where i am. And I'll still keep encouraging anyone. Don't be afraid to use your voice, the fact that you're in that room means that you have an obligation to use your voice. It's important that you do that. hat. And the more you use your voice, the more you will find this in the future. And the more you find it in the future, the more you're going to encourage other people to use their voice, whether they're Black, white, male, female, trans, gay, straight, whatever the case might be. But what is the benefit of you being in that room? If you're going to be quiet or sound like everybody else? What do you bring to the table?

Steph Edusei  20:11

Yeah.  Yeah,

Festus Akinbusoye  20:57

 you might as well not be there, because somebody else who says, I know what you're gonna say anyway. Right?

Steph Edusei  21:00

 Yeah.  And I think I mean, we've had interesting discussions on Black All Year before about safety and about the safety to do that. And I think there is, I do wonder, and I think if I think about my own position, I think I've got evidence just commenting there. I think I've probably got to the position now where it's kind of the requirement for me and the duty that I feel to speak up and be that voice is outweighing do, I feel safe to do that. And I think what I would always acknowledge is that, that there are there will be some people who do not feel safe, because their entire livelihood is dependent on that role. And therefore, it's very difficult for them to,

Festus Akinbusoye  21:41

I understand that, I understand that. But I can just tell you about me, and how I and the risks that I choose to take. Okay, but I understand that you can never change power structures by just being nice. It doesn't happen. You know, it's, it's just, it's just the way it is. But look, I'm not going to ask anyone to be like me, and be willing to put their livelihoods on the line. But I've been but what I found this day. So this is the honest truth. Very often, that thing that you want to say, but  you're worried about saying there are many other people in the room who are thinking the same thing, who are in positions of power, for the just of..? Look, I've sat in meetings with senior chief constables in the country, say around the wrist action plan. And point blank I, I told them exactly what I thought. And afterwards, I had some of them message  me Festus, You know what, I agree what you said, but I just can't say it in public. And so, I mean, I can say, well, you're now in this position, you've got all this power, but you don't want to speak really, I'm like, What is the point of your power in the first place? So But look, the more people like me, and you use our platform to speak in a dispassionate way, in an emphatic way. About  some of these issues, the more hopefully we'll create, maybe in a small way, in a gradual  way, safer spaces, for more people to be able to speak in the future as well, because if Festus  can say it on national TV. Maybe it's okay for me to say it as well. And I'm cool with that.

Steph Edusei  23:34

 Yeah, And he's actually commented that quite often people who are from the global majority, who are in positions of authority, don't use their privilege to speak. And it can be extremely frustrating. And I think that there is that importance, but for us when we've got that position, and we've got that privilege and power to do that, but also for others who are sitting alongside us who call themselves allies to do the same,

Festus Akinbusoye  24:00

which is why you might have seen that interview that we both agreed to be in January or February of this year. And there was quite a an interesting one, because there were you don't get a briefing necessarily about what you're gonna talk about. And that's fine with me. But I told her that I was going to be frank about I'm not gonna  give you a political answers to which I can do, you know, but there's no need for it. And there's no point in me being where I am now. If all I'm gonna do is just sound like everybody else, and not bring my own lived experience to the table. Otherwise, there's no point. And then she asked me about do I think there is racism in policing? Do I think there is racism in the use of stop and search? Now, I know other people who look like me who I'm, you know, putting positions in politics, we're going to be like, Well, no. Well, the answer is yes. The evidence shows that it doesn't mean Not everyone is racist, but it is there. You've got to call it what it is. I have no qualms saying that. But I think also it's about the way that we say things. I think it is possible to talk about the race issue without being divisive. I think it is possible to talk about the misogyny in society issue without being divisive. It is possible to talk about the issue around gender identifications now without being divisive. The problem is when we started talking about these issues, in a ways that just distances people from us. And I think that is a skill that some people need to probably either exhibit a bit more, because they've got it because I've seen them do it in other areas, or develop what it has to be said. But I think there's a way of saying it, that includes people rather than excludes them. And I think that's where the discomfort often comes in.

Steph Edusei  25:59

I think I mean, I think I would have agreed to an extent with you, I think that, you know, I would certainly say that I'm the type of person that likes to have an inclusive conversation rather than a combative conversation. I think some of my experience would say, though, that some people the second that they start to feel discomfort, and let's face it, you know, if somebody started to talk to me about their experiences as a, as a trans woman, and was calling out my privilege as a sis woman, that might get a bit uncomfortable for me, that's okay. And I should feel uncomfortable about it doesn't mean I'm wrong, doesn't mean I'm bad, I should feel uncomfortable. The problem is, I find some people when they feel that discomfort, they get defensive. Yeah, yeah. And then it makes it really difficult.

Festus Akinbusoye  26:46

You are right, look, these kind of conversations, errm  they're going to be around for forever, it's not going to go away. I just want it to be okay for us to talk about the pains that other people feel in society, without others saying, well, here we go again. That is where I want to, I want to be able to listen to women talk about how unsafe they might feel at night, walking through a park, without men thinking, Oh, here we go. Again, I want Black people, brown skinned people, anyone who was talking about what they go through on a day to day basis that they're not happy about. And we just want to listen, and I keep saying this. When we have a society, where people, no one no longer want to listen, the argument starts. And when the argument starts, the fighting starts. And nobody wins. And ultimately, it starts with people being willing to listen to one another, and our experiences and trying to find ways that we can make society safer, better, and happier for everyone. I don't think that's too much of a difficult thing to aspire to.

Steph Edusei  28:01

And you've  actually said that quite often it's about the message, not the messenger. And that actually, when you're discussing things like racism, racism, misogyny, homophobia, whatever. People go into denial, and I think following on from denial comes that defence and it's human nature. So Festus, one of the things that when we have chat before this and I think it's one of the things that is you breaking stereotypes a little bit, I want to talk a bit about your politics. And so you're a Black conservative politician, that must bring with it a few complexities, because your party has let's put it lightly faced some criticism about racial issues in the past. And actually, at the moment, if we think about things like immigration, we think about the report on the commission for race and ethnic disparities, where it pretty much said systemic racism doesn't exist. And everything's okay. How do you how do you equate some of the stuff that you've just been talking about with being a Black conservative politician, because that doesn't compute for me,

Festus Akinbusoye  29:10

Apart from apart from the fact Steph that you're wearing the correct colour? So I see very much as an ally in this, but look, it's not why should you have to be very difficult. You know, I think there are perceptions that people have that it's what it is, I have never personally experienced racism within the Conservative Party myself. I have never, in fact  if anything. I have been pushed forward to go for things by white men and white women who saw my talents and my abilities, and they said Festus  you have to go for this and I will help you I will open doors for you and they have been supportive. And I have given suggestions about things and they haven't taken on board I, that has been my experience. However, can I say the experience of other people are invalid? Absolutely not,  I will be  stupid to say so any more than I can say that my father's experience of racism was just a make believe thing. So that's just not where I'm at. In terms of me, squaring my Blackness, with policing, and with betterment of the Conservative Party, I am me, I am not shaped by the political party that I am in, if anything, I want to shape it. And any human being that allows an external factor to shape who they are, is in for a lot of problems at some point in their lives. Whether you come into policing, whether you come into the healthcare sector, whether you go into education, there will be a culture in all of these organisations, you have to decide if you want that organisation to shape  you and your values and who you are. Or do you want it to be the other way around. I always choose because I have spent a lot of time working on my own sense of values, who I am, what I am, what I want to see. And projecting to the world that I am in, I'm confident enough in enough in that I know that I can use that to influence for the better any environment that I find myself in. So I don't worry too much about what some government ministers might say they're going to do. It's what it is, I don't have control over that. But whenever I have the opportunity to share my views in a way that you can influence that. I will do that irrespective of what that impression that will have for me in the future or not. So honestly, I do not have a big issue squaring my, my race with being in policing, or within the Conservative Party, because I can see how me being who I am, is having a positive impact in those two spaces.

Steph Edusei  32:22

So so let's just stick with politics for a moment. And it's interesting in the comments you've got if you believe that systemic racism is real, and that's an if, that's a question, then to say that you have not been impacted by that is actually denying......

Festus Akinbusoye  32:44

I did not say that I have not been impacted by it. That's not what I said. I said, I have not   directly witnessed it. Right. Those were my words.

Steph Edusei  32:52

 So so that So from your perspective, when you're saying about not having experienced racism directly, it's that it's that tangible one on one type of racism rather than that more systemic?

33:06

Yes, yeah. So that's not so missing, I've not seen it personally, does not mean that it doesn't exist. Like I've just said, you know, you may remember me talking about my dad as well. And what other people would have  told me they have experienced, but often does not mean that the system does not create barriers, which is what systemic racism really means. If you look at what if you go by the McPherson report, are the systems and institutional processes in place, make it difficult for certain people by virtue of who they are or what they are to be part of that environment? Of course, that happened, I can tell you how I've chosen to deal with it, which I've kind of mentioned in the past few minutes. But I'm not suggesting by any means at all that that it doesn't exist. Nor do I think that means and I haven't experienced it directly, is denying the existence of it. Yeah. I hope that makes sense.

Steph Edusei  34:03

Yeah, it does. And then so so again, like I said, this is this is about me, and just kind of, you know,

Festus Akinbusoye  34:09

its fine, its fine.

Steph Edusei  34:10

 resolving things. So when you are a member of a supporter of a political party, that has come out with some of the policies that our government has come out with, to remain a member of that party. How How, how can you do that?

Festus Akinbusoye  34:30

This is this is this is just preposterous, right? Even though Christianity was used to justify the slave trade. How many people in this audience are Christians? Right? Islam was used to justify the slave trade? How many people in this audience are Muslims? Okay. The Labour Party was appointed to this country into a war in Iraq that killed many, many, many people. And this country is still serving the impacts of that till tomorrow. There are people who have been the Labour Party who are Black who are Muslims? Right? This idea that you can't be one thing and belong to one group. It's just ridiculous. The NHS has got an even greater level of disproportionality in terms of outcome. Look at what happened with Black women in the NHS in maternity wards? How many Black nurses are there in the NHS? Do we support the NHS? Yes, we all do. We all think the NHS is the one of the best thing since sliced bread. So this idea that you can't being something because the organization's some one, one or two people have some ideas within that organisation, I think is just preposterous, you've got to realise that politics is like a spectrum. And in every political party, just like in any organisation, they are different views. And it's only a matter of time, which view will be on the ascendancy. It's only a matter of time, those who were out in Brexiteers, they gradually, you know, the pendulum is swinging one way, and eventually things will swing in roundabouts again. And ultimately, those who stick around the longest. And calling the shots eventually, what if all Black people were to become Labour Party members, or Labour Party supporters? That is no good news for Black people. In my opinion. If all Black people were to be in the Tory party, for example, that will not be a good news for Black people, Black people. Okay, we've got to recognise that politics, our political organisations, gatherers of every kind, the same way that you can have one church, where different people have their own beliefs about who Jesus is, there's some people in the Catholic Church who think Jesus is Black. And there are those who think Jesus got blond hair and blue eyes, are they still operating the same Jesus? Right? It doesn't have to be a problem. What matters is who you are what you believe in, when you have the opportunity to make decisions to drive change, what do you do? And I think there are some people who you can question what they are doing at the moment, given how much they look like you and me, but hey, it is it is what it is.

Steph Edusei  37:22

Yeah. So if I, if I'm hearing you correctly, I'm going to, I'm going to clean this little phrase up a little bit. And you would rather be in the tent spitting out than being outside the tent spitting in.

Festus Akinbusoye  37:37

I spit and kissing it. That's what that is. But let me just say this now, regardless of what political party you're in, you're going to be making decisions that will be popular or some some unpopular. You know, this is the reality of the public space. There are some things that there are some things that governments have done, that I do not agree with. They are something they have done, they have done that I'm that I support. If you want to talk about immigration, for example, since you raised that issue, I don't see anything wrong or racist about a government wanting to control its borders. And who comes to this country. In Africa. This happens all the time. You know, there was a time when I mean, this is still the case, you know, there there are immigration controls in Africa, within African countries. You know, I don't see any real problem with a country and wanted to get a grip on who comes in, and who stayed in the country. I think that is agreed across all political parties or political divides, that this is not a bad thing. However, I understand the concerns that some will have about the language, that's what I wanted, that I really worry about. I think it is absolutely obscene, that human beings will be described as, you know, as like cockroaches and refer to in a very, very inhumane way. That is not how I want to determine the kind of size that I want to live in. It is totally wrong. And I do not support that. And I have been quite public, in some cases, oppose some of the language has been used by some government ministers in the past. And that is a matter of public record. And I'm not going to change that.

Steph Edusei  39:30

Yeah. And I think there's something as well, that I would love to see from from across the political spectrum, is that recognition and acceptance of the role that the UK has to play in creating the circumstances that means that people have to or want to leave their, their their countries of origin and I think there's there's just a general lack of that. It's almost as if.......

Festus Akinbusoye  39:54

 But you challenge a Black person who's in the Labour Party, because  you got, we've got people who are  coming  in across the border who coming  from Iraq now. Now. 

Steph Edusei  40:06

Yeah, because, like say it's across, it's across the political spectrum, there needs to be that acceptance that we have created a lot of those conditions and continue to create those conditions. 

Festus Akinbusoye  40:19

And it's, it's,  look it's a it's a real challenge, because I can understand the political dynamics, that is some words are driving this narrative and policy move. But the reality where we find ourselves in Britain right now is that we've got the highest ever proportion of job vacancies available now unfilled. We've got in terms of our economy, this the one of the lowest levels of unemployment that we've ever had, if you want to grow economy, you need people to do the jobs.

Steph Edusei  40:57

yea

Festus Akinbusoye  40:58

 Right. So even if we are having we having children in this country, at a slightly higher rate than the European average, those kids will not be working anytime soon.

Steph Edusei  41:08

Yea

Festus Akinbusoye  41:09

 So you need the labour, you need people to do the jobs. So I'm sure somebody has some ways talking some sense to someone, that you actually need people into the country to the job. And what people want to want people some what some people want don't want to accept is that if you look at immigration from outside of the EU, it is the highest has ever been. 

Steph Edusei  41:33

Yeah, and I mean, we could we could have a very long discussion about some of the ...

Festus Akinbusoye  41:39

  Well i think without saying much more you kind of know exactly where I stand on this.

Steph Edusei  41:42

 err  so I just wanted to kind of pick up on one of the things so I know that you've come out and be very supportive of stop and  search, and obviously, amongst the errm the Black and ethnic and  minoritized population, that that is a bit of a controversial tactic of the police. So can you talk a little bit about stop and search and where you stand on that?

42:05

Well, I start from the point of view of I have been stopped and searched six times. First time was as 19 year old in London, where I asked the officer, you know, as  cheeky, young teenager at the time. Why have you stopped me and I was told just to make sure you know One  of London's most wanted? That was it? I've been Say  I've since been stopped sort of three times in London once in Hertfordshire. Once in Bedfordshire, and once in Buckinghamshire. Well notice I've been a Police and Crime Commissioner, by the way, I hasten to add interesting, I clearly I have a recognisable face, but I look and but then when I became a Special Constable, volunteer police officer, I did stop and  search. And I stopped people where they were Black, white or Asian, whatever the case might be. But at the same time, so I've seen I see this from both sides of the fence. But also I have had there’s a  young boy that I used to mentor. Many years ago when I lived in London. He was beaten to death, you know, with the dog chain, in broad daylight in East  London. One of the year of a young family, a friend of ours. in Hackney there was a documentary about him on radio for a couple of months ago. He Black boy, he had witnessed a rape, a gang rape in Hackney he stopped the boys Black boys ribbon a Black young Black girl. He gave evidence courageous, they gave courageously against these young men that were sent to jail. They came when they were released, they found him and they shot him from his own house. He was not involved in the gang. He just Abraham had just finished university and he wanted to become a physio and at a football club. He  was killed another young boy that I knew he was stabbed to death in Notting Hill. He ran into a pub to see if anyone could save him but he died. Honestly, like a like an animal. So these are often that I'm actually quite connected to. And I see what is and the parents of these kids. You know what every single one of them say? Why are the police doing more take these knives of these children? Why can't the police take this knife of these people? I've never had any one of them say to me that the police should do less fewer stop and  searches. Not one. Not one. Bobby's mom I spoke with her about two or three months ago on the anniversary of Bobby's killing about 16/17 years ago. She still cannot redecorate his bedroom. Even the photo the photos in his bedroom. His room is like a shrine. But he could she would the trauma and all that and she still keeps saying, well, Festus now you're a child of the police even though I'm not sure of the police. Now you're the child of the police. What are you doing take this knife off of our streets. Stop  and search  is just one of the tools that the police have been taking these knives off our streets. And I'm sorry, friends, I've got to say this. It sickens me whenever I go to our prisons, to talk to young people. It's full of Black boys who have committed crimes with knives. That is the fact that young Black boys are disproportionately represented in the homicide figures in this country. And the majority of the perpetrators are young Black boys. This is a crisis in our community that we've got to talk about. So yes, I can talk to you tomorrow about the disproportionality of stop and  search and what I'm doing here in Bedfordshire, to make sure that we're actually we have got the least disproportionate use of stopping search in the whole of England and Wales. For the second or third year in a row, we've got the least disproportionate use of stop and search HMIC have found us to be the best in the country in terms of the legitimate use of stop and  searches. We've included with my investment in community policing, we've increased the level of stop and searches, actually, by community officers for defined rates have increased as well. But the disproportionality ratio has dropped. Because they're using intelligence by officers who know the area who know  the  troublemakers and who they're targeting rather than just a random stop and search.

Steph Edusei  46:46

And that that is the risk as it was stopped and search is that they see they see you they see me and they go, Oh, look, it's a Black person wearing a hoodie. Better stop them, rather than actually. Is there any any justification for this? Is there any intelligence that suggests this? Because yes,

Festus Akinbusoye  47:02

so there are two sides to this. So there's the issue, which gets me really, really animated. As you can probably see, and I really apologise about that, because this is quite personal for me. You know, I talked with these parents, and not one of them have ever ever talked about this functionality to me, not one. All they know is that this boy had a knife on him, and no one to the knife off him. But on the on the disproportionality ratio, and someone I think mentioned about the causes of why people are carrying knives, and why young Black boys are, let's be quite frank, are killing other Black boys. Not to say that that's the only place where it's happening because white people also killed people. But for the sake of for the purpose of the topic, subject of this of this, of this group. There are several issues, some will talk about poverty, some will talk about trauma, generational trauma, some will talk about education system and the risk of exclusion from school. And my strong belief is that when a young person is not in education for a long enough period of time, bad things happen to them. And that is what the evidence show that from from the Department of Education, about 60 70% of young people who were found with a knife, have had a history of persistent absences from school, or not going to school at all.

Steph Edusei  48:26

So we've just got a few minutes left believe it or not  the time has flown by. And I think that that that's a really good point for us to just kind of touch on before we end around actually, what how were you using your role as PCC to look at addressing some of those root causes? What what is it that you feel you can do in your role to tackle some of those systemic issues that are pushing people more towards crime?

Festus Akinbusoye  48:53

My first starting point is that policing has got to be something that is done with the public, not to the public. And one of the ways you do that is by being transparent and open. The police need to make information available to the public, whether it is putting them in a good light or a poor light, because how can you change something that you don't admit? How can you fix something that you don't see as a problem? How can you tell something that you can't see. And if the police are publishing for the public to see the level of stop and  searches, the ethnic breakdown of those who are being stalked the outcomes of those searches? Okay, the age profile of those who are searched the location of those searches, unless you have the information in the public domain for the public to scrutinise, right? How can you start to deal with this problematic dysfunctionality? racial  issue number one, and if you're finding that you're doing a lot of your searches certain area where maybe there's a high level of social deprivation, how they can start putting resources in those areas to maybe have more activities for young people in that area, start investing more in schools in those areas, start looking at social services in those areas, start looking at how to run services or work in those areas. If you don't have that information in the public domain, that is a recipe for disaster. So one thing that I'm doing in Bedfordshire is, for example, that as a PCC, I have to publish something called SIOS or specified information orders. And there's some basic that I have to put in a public domain. I choose to go beyond my legal requirements, to publish all of that information, so everyone can see it. Right. Also, we have a police scrutiny panel, which in my view, is one of the best in the country. And it is made up of members of the public, the police do not run our scrutiny panel is set. I recently took the oversight of it into my office or a secretariat  or rather, a couple of months and months ago, on to recently we had a we had a Black man as the chair of that panel, and then a Black woman recently, and a white guy is now the chair of it. It's got to buy 60 members is quite for some reason, for some reason is not evenly divided from the ethnicities. So it's about 1/3 Black, 1/3 Asian, 1/3 1/3 White, and they have unfettered access to body one video footage of all stop and search for use of force by police officers in Bedfordshire. And they have been trained on what the law is on stop and search and use of force. And they can have a look at that. And then give feedback to the police officers. Some of them don't like that off. And it has to happen. We have a situation now where when we look at the stop and search  league table, so to say, well, there isn't a league table, but you can look at the information, which officer has been carrying out the most up in search. What high is fine to raise his or her find rates? If you find that that is the disproportionality ratio of that police officers to nearly a bit out of kilter with the norm, they have to have a conversation with the Assistant Chief Constable. Now that is a massive leap for them to know because we want to stop them from doing their job. We want to find out why you stopping that many people. And oh, and by the way, you ain’t  finding nothing. What what are you doing? Right, so when they know they're gonna have that kind of conversation, people just think a little bit more before they start doing certain things. So we haven't seen stop and searches  falling as a result of this, what we've actually seen is that it's gotten better. And this is what we need, we don't necessarily need less  stop and search. The police needs to  to do their  job because people don't have they don't have an  x-ray device to see whose  got a knife or gun, whatever it is on them. It just needs to be better. The only I think that we need to be doing is that Police and  Crime Commissioners need to do a much better job in holding their chief constables accountable for the way they use these powers. So the force knows that the Chief Constable knows that when the time we have whenever we're having a conversation about force performance. I want  to see  data on this, because what you what you measure is what improves, right? Yeah. If you don't look at it, yeah, nothing's gonna happen. So we've got the scrutiny  in the panels. We've got the scrutiny from my side as a political Commissioner as well. But also what I'm most I'm doing as a PCC I don't think I know the commissioner does this in the country. My  PA was telling me about yesterday, I've probably been to about 87 schools since April last year, last year, but i couldn’t  beforehand, because locked down schools were not allowing anyone to come in. And if you include the holidays, I'm probably doing about two to three schools a week, directly going into school assemblies, from nurseries to secondary schools to sixth form colleges. Talking to  young people are by my own lived experience, inspiring them about what the future can hold for them, telling them about my background and the choice that I had to make to be where I am today. So they actually see someone that looks like me, that sounds like me with my background, where I'm at. And the impact that has had on some of the emails that I've heard from parents, or my son kept talking about this big Black guy that came to this school the other day, they could never remember my name, but they were imagining was me. I spoke about this and he has to stop talking about you since last week. We've had several of these kinds of messages. So and also lastly in Bedfordshire, we have an education and  diversion team police officers who go into schools. We have a violence reduction unit team that's led by a Black woman, the first one in the country as well as led by  a Black woman. Kimberly Natalie might know who she is. She's absolutely amazing woman, she reports directly to me as well. Again, they do an amazing work working with young people, taking them off the streets, engaging with their family supporting them, to keep them off the streets. And just lastly, I was talking about a pilot that I just finished in Bedfordshire on absenteeism. My view was that local authorities were despite their best efforts failing some young people who were not going to school for different reasons, and the police were being called in to deal with these  kids. Now, in my view, why the hell are the police being called to deal with case of a child who's been absent from school. You just criminalising this case. You know, we don't want kids to be having that kind of exposure to the police, especially when they haven't committed a crime. Some of them are known to the police. So I decided to use some of the funding from our VRU. To get some of their years officers, that youth intervention specialist to actually take the referrals from the school of a child has not been school less for about a day or two. And they go visit them at home, have talk  with their parents, so they're not part of the police. They're not part of the local authority. They're not there to find you and take you to court. They're just there to find out what the problem is and what can be done to help you get back into school. And we have had 100% engagement rate of the One  hundred and eighty or  number of kids that they actually dealt worked with in the last four months. Amazing. So we now have a young person who was not going to school before who's not an apprenticeship programme, we've got one that now wants to join the army and other ones that's kind of a restricted itinerary at school. So he's going into school for a couple of hours before he wasn't going to school at all. But we had to pilot this in Bedfordshire. So I've just written to the education secretary. they now   know about what we've done, the impacts that we have in some of these kids, unfortunately, they're the ones who end up getting exploited by the gangs. So hopefully, that gives you a small idea of some of the things that I'm trying to do in my own space.

Steph Edusei  57:09

All right, thank you. And we're gonna have to draw to a close. I think one of the things I've been struck by though, is that, and there's been some stuff in the comments about this is that if you if if one accepts that racism exists, and that systemic or institutional racism exists, and start from that point, you can actually start to make a difference. 

Festus Akinbusoye  57:31

Yeah. 

Steph Edusei  57:31

And I think perhaps that the barrier that we've got in some, some areas, and particularly some police forces that are very simply so

Festus Akinbusoye  57:39

 We can talk about the Met and  err  greater Manchester Yes.

Steph Edusei  57:43

Yeah, that reluctance, that absolute denial, that inability to use those words, are actually blocking progress.

Festus Akinbusoye  57:52

What I want to say about that is this, friends is that let us not delegates, our own powers, to other people who have other ideas, I understand the importance that some of us are placing in the need for certain individuals to accept certain things. We are not going to be able to change that for everybody. There are some people who are going to accept that we're in a free country. Some people will accept certain things, and some people won't. But that must not stop the need for progress and change. So they can deny all they want the reality stares them in the face, and eventually is going to slap them in the face. Right? So what I choose to do I accept that this institutional problems are there for women, for ethnic minorities, for global majorities for it is there. And my rationale for wanting to change this is this, I want this country to be the best country for anyone to live and do business and to raise a family. We can't do that if we're not getting the very best out of all of our people. Racism, misogyny, homophobia, all of these kinds of prejudices dampen aspiration, and it clobbers desire, and ultimately distorting from progressing and be developed given the better the candidates this  country. So by dealing with racism, institutional racism, you're also going to deal with institutional misogyny. And I keep saying to all these people who deny some.  look, what you allow to continue in your organisation, is what you institutionalise. And by institutionalising one thing, you're going to institutionalise other things. Very rarely will you find an organisation that is institutionally racist, but it's not institutionally misogynist as well. because these things do not exist in isolation. They just don't. So by tackling one bravely, you're gonna deal with the others. And that's what some of these leaders have to recognise. I see it. The Chief Constable in Bedfordshire gets it. And I'll keep using my influence wherever I can to try and make those kind of changes.

Steph Edusei  1:00:24

Thank you. So thank you very much Festus. I think it's been recorded talks all afternoon. I know, we could have talked all afternoon, because it's

Festus Akinbusoye  1:00:35

oh you could have talked all  afternoon, I'll listen to you.

Steph Edusei  1:00:37

And hopefully, we'll be able to catch up again. Because I think I think it's a conversation we should keep having. And, but we do have to let you go and let everybody who's joined us today go. Just to let you know, we do have some more events coming up. So please keep an eye on Eventbrite so that you can book them and let me know if there are topics that you'd like me to cover in future on Blackallyearuk@outlook.com. And once again, if you're watching this on YouTube, or listening to the podcast, please like and subscribe so that you can find out about future events, and help others to find it. 

Festus Akinbusoye  1:01:12

 Can I be naughty, and say something just lastly, just by way of encouragement to anyone who's watching this podcast? Just go for it. Whatever it is that you want to achieve, regardless of the colour of your skin, your gender, your religion, your sexual orientation. Don't take no for an answer. Don't let anyone tell you that you're not ready. Apart from it. And if you think that you're not ready, then you're probably not. But if you believe that you are, if you believe that you're 50%, good enough, that is more than good enough. Don't give up. Don't let anyone say that you're not very, just go for it. And yes, they're going to be individuals who are not very kind to put it politely. That's fine. You just focus on what you want to achieve. Keep having good intentions, good ambitions, and the right things will happen. But don't give up please, our children need you to excel for them to be able to excel. We cannot take these opportunities for granted. I know it is hard, but other people had it harder for us to be where we are today. And we can just do something now to make it easy for our kids, it will be totally worth it. And if I can be of help to anybody in the future, you know, I'm quite easy to find.

Steph Edusei  1:02:36

Right, And I would I would say you know, just to add to that and find your allies and that's a really great point to end on. Thank you so much Festus and thank you everybody for joining us. Bye