Black All Year
Black History Month plays a crucial role, but it's essential to acknowledge that the celebration of Black heritage and culture extends beyond just one month. It's a year-round commitment involving celebration, recognition, support, education, and advocacy. Hosting this podcast is Steph Edusei, a renowned leader, speaker, and coach. As an Ashanti-Geordie woman with mixed Ghanaian and English roots from the North East of England, she brings a unique perspective to the table.
Black All Year
Black All Year - Antiracist Discussions; From 'Not Racist' to Actively Anti-Racist: Personal Stories and Strategies for Change
What happens when you're a Black person, facing discrimination and harassment in a world that often fails to provide the necessary protection and support? Join us as we explore the unique challenges faced by our guests, Loujane Alasi and Jamie Conway, who share their personal experiences of discrimination, racism and Islamophobia from a young age. Using prompts from Ibram X. Kendi's Antiracist Deck, through their stories, we examine the complexities of race, cultural identity, and the stark contrast between how society reacts to high profile cases involving white women and black women.
Delving into the topic of anti-racism, Lou Jane and Jamie discuss why it's not enough to simply be "not racist" in today's society. They highlight the importance of being actively anti-racist and how individuals can make the transition from being passive observers to catalysts for change. Drawing upon the BBC Bitesize video by John Amaechi, we tackle the essential differences between being not racist and anti-racist, and explore the importance of constant self-awareness and growth.
As we navigate the murky waters of racialisation and institutional spaces, our guests share their insights on accountability, cultural differences, and the human element in equality impact assessments. We also discuss strategies for combatting targeted violence and how we can all contribute to an antiracist future by constantly educating ourselves, checking our biases, and embracing discomfort as we learn and grow. Don't miss this thought-provoking conversation with Lou Jane and Jamie on how to make a real difference in the fight against racism.
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Black All Year - Antiracist Discussions
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
feel, racist, realise, attack, behaviour, white, racism, term, recognise, conversations, aware, people, experience, black, move, happened, question, privilege
SPEAKERS
Loujane Alasi, Steph Edusei, Melanie Ndzinga, Jamie Conway
Steph Edusei
Welcome, I'm Steph Edusei. And I'm the creator of Black All Year, which is here to remind everyone that Black issues challenges, achievements and experiences happen all year round and not just in Black History Month. Now, if you've missed previous events, they are available on YouTube and as a podcast, and if you're watching or listening to this after the event, then please like and subscribe, as it makes sure that you don't miss any future material and it will also help others to find the content.
Steph Edusei
Today on Black All Year we're going to be having some antiracist discussions. And this is a bit of an experiment. It's first time I've done this as a live event. But I have a couple of people that are going to join me in this experiment and I hope that you who are attending are going to join us as well. So I have with us Loujane Alasi and Jamie Conway. So let me just quickly introduce them. So Loujane is the Media Communications Officer for a local charity based in Newcastle upon Tyne, which is called Success for All CIO and is a non Executive Director for Newcastle Creates and also a freelance journalist. Before she joined Success For All, Loujane pursued a career in the built environment sector as an architectural technologist; I wish I knew what that meant, but it sounds really, really clever; where she worked on a range of national and international new build and refurbishment projects. Whilst at university Loujane served as the education coordinator for the Chartered Institute of Architectural Technology aspiration group and was a community reporter for the hyper-local news outlet Jesmond Local.
Steph Edusei
Now, Jamie has been EDI Manager for People in the Newcastle upon Tyne Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust since September 2021. And she previously worked for Northumbria Police and the North East Ambulance Service holding similar EDI roles. Prior to this, she worked with adults with disabilities and supported asylum seekers. And Jamie has won the Skills for Care Accolade Award for her work with adults with learning disabilities, and the National Ambulance LGBT Gold Star for Life and has been nominated for the 2022 Northern Power Women One to Watch award. And she really believes that her role is to create a safe and inclusive environment where people have the choice to bring as much of themselves as they wanted to work, and that's on their terms, not on ours.
Steph Edusei
So welcome to you both. I'm absolutely delighted that you have agreed to join me in this. And I think, you know, hopefully it's going to be a really interesting and exciting experience. So shall we launch straight into our first question. And I have actually got the cards here, I've got to be careful where I hold them so you can see them. But this is actually from something called The Antiracist Deck. So this is the deck. It's actually 100 cards, which are conversation starters. And it's been produced by Ibram X Kendi. You can buy them online, if you if you want to get them. And the idea is that you can either use them for yourself, you can use them in small groups, large groups, however you want, but they're to start conversations about racism and antiracism. So the first question I'm going to ask is, when did you first become aware of racism? So Loujane, I can see you're not muted. So I'm going to come to you.
Loujane Alasi
Right? Yeah, why not? Thank you for the introduction, Steph. It's wonderful to be here and have others join joining us in the discussion. For me the first time I sort of was aware that I was different, and that I didn't necessarily belong was very early on in my childhood. Yes. So I was actually born in Libya. And but my parents moved here when I was very young. And the first time I was sort of aware of it was when I was in primary school, and around year five. So I was what, eight, nine? And it was one particular day in school. And I still remember it very clearly like as if it was only yesterday. And I went into school for the first time trying out the hijab, which is the head covering. And for the first time I felt as though something wasn't right. There was a group of girls very young, who just sort of started taking the Mickey saying that I couldn't read; I couldn't speak; that I was all these sort of negative rhetorics of Islamophobia that we see today. But I experienced that very early on, and as time went, moving into secondary school, it moved away from the younger people sort of picking it up to older people. And that's the really weird and scary thing about it all, the first time that I was sort of verbally abused in the streets was by a group of old men in the street as I was walking home from school. And that was because I was wearing the hijab. And I was just minding my own business walking home. And this group of really old men, I would say, mid, sort of really old, and they were just sort of coming at me and I was like, what, wait, what? What's going on here? You know, you have it when you're young, and you just sort of rub it off. It's in school, you know, they're just children, and you just sort of rub it off. But when it's older people, that's when it sort of really struck me, in a way.
Steph Edusei
Yeah, I find what you say interesting Loujane, because it's that layering, isn't it? It's not just racism, as well there's that Islamophobia that's layered on top of it. And I have noticed, I quite often wear shawls and things. And if I've got my hair straight, if it's raining, I'll put the shawl over my head. And I'm more likely to get shouted out. Because I've got a shawl over my head than then I haven't. And it's just, yeah, it's strange and interesting as well, that you came to this country, and it'd be good to kind of, you were very young, but I think there'll be another question coming up where it might be interesting to kind of look at the difference there, and what you experienced there.
Steph Edusei
Jamie, what about you? When did you first become aware of racism?
Jamie Conway
Firstly, Thanks you thanks for having us here today. It's really nice to be here. And thank you for that lovely introduction. And for me, the first time I became aware of racism was probably in primary school and my dad, he travelled a lot. So he travelled the world with work and was really frequently away quite a lot. And because of him travelling, I became really aware how he would always come home. And I'd be fascinated with where's he been, what he'd been doing. And he was a really good storyteller. So he would tell me lots of stories about other people's culture and experiences and where we've been, and I always used to ask him, what he did. That was our conversation, what have you eaten this time, and I just really love to learn about, about things. And because of that exposure, my parents were really quite, quite good at having really quite open conversations around language and the importance of it. And I remember in school, obviously, people will be aware of kind of how corner shops would be referred to, the terminology and language that was used when people would order an Indian takeaway or a Chinese takeaway. And I remember asking my mum and dad about why people would call those different things to what we would in our family, what that meant, what, and they had lots of conversations with me. And I remember being really, and I think that comes from a place of privilege, but I was really quite baffled by it. I just didn't understand it. My parents were telling me that it was really important to not use language, and this is what it meant. But yet my experience around my peers who were all children, it was just so flippant, it just came out, it wasn't even that there was that recognition. And I think, yeah, it was it was definitely Primary School, where I started to understand that there was something there. And that actually, for me, what was more confusing was the lack of, of interest for other people to find out about that and understand the language they were using, and what it is they were saying and, the places where that came from, which I think is still really common today. I think it starts very young, when people use words and language and behaviours, not fully understand and impact.
Steph Edusei
Yeah, and if anybody who's kind of joining us today wants to join in, please just raise your hands and we'll come to you. I think, for me, it's interesting, actually, probably was primary school as well. And I think it was, it's looking back on it now, I realise that that stuff was racist, but it was, it was the being made to feel different. So, so I say some of the terminology we used to have. For those who there are old enough, there used to be a particular chocolate bar. And it used to go nuts. oh, the jingle went nuts, oh hazelnuts, Cadbury's make them and they cover them in chocolate. And I would have particularly boys in the playground singing that at me. And I can remember thinking, well, I like chocolate what's the problem in that. But now that I'm an adult, I recognise what it was in it, and it was the, so why are you saying that to me? And not realising that, that that was a bad thing. And the follow up question on this one, which I really love this question. and I, I think I should ask it more, is when did you first become aware of your race? So Jamie, I'm gonna ask you. When did you first become aware of your race?
Jamie Conway
I'm aware of the deck Steph. And obviously we talked about some of the questions and for me, this is a question that I've really struggled to answer in my brain. And I think that comes from a place of my whiteness if you like. Because I think privilege has allowed me to not ever consider my race. And I think, obviously, in the profession that I am in and as an adult, I do think it's something but certainly not as a child, it wasn't something I ever thought of it wasn't something that I considered, it wasn't something I was aware of, I don't have a definitive moment in time that I can look back on and say, that's when it clicked. That's when things changed in my mind, and I think that's really symptomatic of the point of privilege, if you like, when I when I say that, and I think that that frustrates me almost. And it's something it's a question I would like to be able to answer, but I think it's really difficult to do. So I think there's been environments where I've been made to feel aware of my race, but that's few and far between. But it's not, there isn't a definitive point in time. But I recognise that for other people that might be very, very different.
Steph Edusei
Yeah. And I think for me, it's just simply a case of I can't remember a time when I haven't been aware of, of my race. I think I've always been aware that I was Black, and that I was mixed heritage. And yeah, I can't I can't ever think of a time when that hasn't been very clear to me that that's who I was, and that was a part of me. So yeah. And as you say it is that that real difference I think. Loujane, I'm interested, this is one of the things that I find sometimes when I speak to people who have come to the UK, that their experience is different to mine. What about you?
Loujane Alasi
I would say, for the first part of my childhood, I wasn't really aware of it. I didn't really even now that I look back, I, I just saw myself as another child. But again, that comes from a place of privilege. You know, I was very much very white passing, if I could say growing up. And but, it was around when I could speak English, that I was aware that I'm not British, and that I am not from here. And it was really around the 911 events that brought it to light because people, particularly in school made me feel as though I wasn't from England. Even though up until that moment, I felt very much oh I speak, now that I could speak English as I get, I'm English and British, you know, I didn't consider myself Libyan, I didn't really associate with it as much. But with those events, it sort of changed the way that I sort of saw myself, and the way others saw myself. And that's when I knew that, you know, no matter what I did, I was never going to fit in. And that's when I sort of started becoming aware, you know, it's just, you're all, you're always not going to be like everyone else, no matter how hard you try to fit in or how Geordie your accent is or any of that, you were always not going to be British enough. And sort of it did take a lot of time for me to sort of embrace that, particularly as a third culture kid, when you don't feel like you belong to either, for example, Britain or Libya. People back in Libya will be like, Oh, no, you're too You're too British to be Libyan. And then here, it's like, no, no matter what you do, you're not British enough. You're always going to be Libyan and you're always going to be treated as though you're not British. And so that's sort of Yeah, so it started off. I wasn't really aware. And I didn't really understand, I wasn't aware of what ethnicity means or what race was. And even till today, it's sort of still learning about you know, what box is it that you tick on the censuses, am I white? Am I other, am I Arab, am I North African, like sort of where do I fit in all of these boxes and categories?
Steph Edusei
And it's interesting, I know there are others who, who, on the call who, who have come to the country, perhaps as adults. And I remember one of the things that Ngozi Cole said in I think it was Power and Privilege when we did that Black All year. And she said it was when she came to the UK from Nigeria, as an adult. She realised she was Black. She'd never realised she was Black until that point. And it wasn't that she didn't realise she was Black. It was that actually that wasn't an issue. She was just Ngozi and everybody around her was the same. So why, why was it a big deal?
Steph Edusei
And just to pick up on something because I'm a real language person. And you said about being white passing. And I ask people not to use that term. So I'm not going to tell you off. But the reason I say that is actually it's not an exam. This isn't about you, you kind of you pass or you fail? I know exactly what you mean, you know, people sometimes think that you're white, because you, you look like you could be white. But that it's the use of the term passing, it makes it sound like there's something, that it's an achievement. And you know, it's the how that language is just in our culture. And we don't recognise it a lot of the time, but actually, there's very often our language is about fair is good, and dark is not. So yeah, it's it. But it's a term I hear so often from Black and brown people about being white passing. So yeah, shall we, unless anybody wants to join in, should we move on to another question? Oh, Melanie? Yes, please.
Melanie Ndzinga
I just want to pick up something Loujane said about the census. My children are Black and I had to fill in the census, when the first time they asked that question, was it 91? 1991 when they first asked that question, and there was a fine of something, like £400 for not filling it in. But there was no, there was no option for people of different ethnicities, to live in the same house. I don't know if that's changed now. But I just put down earthling, because I was so cross. I thought, what are they doing, cos I can't put down I'm Black, because I'm white. And I can't put down my children are white because they're not. Every time they walk down the street, the police remind me of that. But so I just put earthling. And a young Black guy, I think they sent students around to check on people's forms, he came to collect the form, and he sat down at the kitchen table. And I thought. oh this is going to be interesting. And he got to that question he looked at looked at it and he looked at me and said, very good. And I never heard another thing about it. So I didn't get a £400 fine.
Steph Edusei
And I think I mean, the census is still really problematic. So you can be white and Black. You can be white and South Asian. And but you can't be Black and South Asian. You can't be East Asian and Black. You can't. So there's the only way you can be mixed as if you mixed with white. And then there are so many
Steph Edusei
You can be other and but there are so many that just aren't in there. And I think one of the big things that people talk about is the fact that I still to this day can't tick on a form that I am mixed heritage Black British. There is no way for me to say I'm British when I'm talking about my ethnicity. So I can be white English, but I can't be Black English. So yeah, the census is still very, very problematic. So shall we move on?
Melanie Ndzinga
I think you can be other
Steph Edusei
So next question, and I'll pop this one to Jamie first, I think, is have you ever felt fear based on your appearance? And I'll ask the follow up question at the same time actually, have you ever anticipated that your identity or body or age or ethnicity would be the cause of ridicule, harm or hatred?
Jamie Conway
Yes, I have. And that is been because of people's perception but then also reality. So as part of my role, you can imagine that I often attend various different events and dress appropriately to do so. So quite often, at events like Pride or any LGBT events, people will perceive me to not be straight, and they will, I have experienced people shouting things in the street at me when I've had rainbow lanyards on and I've also had an attempted assault because I am a woman, so I absolutely have experienced those. But I do feel that as a woman that there are some similarities in terms of the harm that can come my way but I understand that obviously when you add and layer in people's protected characteristics, as a white woman, I am still far more privileged than, for instance, a Black woman so I completely understand that and the support and follow up care that might happen following something like that is very different, in my experience as a white woman to that of a person of colour and I think that it's not every day, there's a lot of environments where I'm safe. There's a lot of times, and I have confidence in the support that I will receive. But I recognise absolutely that that is not the case for other individuals. And I think that difference is quite frightening. And that's where, for me, a lot of the work that our look into is understanding the data that reflects that. But the frustration for me is that there doesn't seem to be an appetite for that data. There seems to be an appetite for a little bit like what I've explained there. I like, for people to relate a likeness if you like. Well, that happens to other people. It's almost like when we talk about gender you have Women's Day and what about me? It's, there's always a similarity. And I think it's really important that actually, yes, the question that you've asked is, have I experienced that? I have, and the reasons that I have are for those reasons, but the point I'd like to make is that actually I recognise it's very different when we're talking about race, and the support and follow up and recognition, I think sometimes, there isn't even the recognition that those things have happened, is really important to note.
Steph Edusei
Yeah. And I think, you know, we just have to look at some of the public reactions to some high profile cases, don't we? And, and actually, when it's been equally tragic, but a white, blonde woman, it's been national news, and everybody's been protesting and sobbing about it. And then it's a it's a Black woman, and it goes largely unremarked on, and so yeah, it is different. But I think there's something for me that, that as a woman, and as a Black woman, you're right, there is that commonality, there is that feeling. And for me, there's something about even though the times of actual physical attack or harm have been, fortunately, very low. The anticipation and the fear that that is going to happen is significant. And it affects the way I behave and the things I do. So things like I won't necessarily go into some public places, because I am concerned about what might happen if I do that. Or I will only go into those spaces, if I have people that I feel will have my back, can't think of another way of putting it. But you know, I will, there are some people who I know, absolutely, if something happened, they would be there for me. And there are a lot of others that don't have that confidence in. And therefore I adjust where I go and how I behave based on who I'm with a lot of the time. And I'm sure you'll kind of have a similar feeling from that being a woman. But it's almost like it's double down when you're black. I've been in groups of women, where I've been singled out for sexual harassment. And the only reason I can think that that's happened is because my ethnicity layered on top of me being female. So Loujane, what about you for that question?
Loujane Alasi
Yes, in short, yes. And it's, it's, it shouldn't be the case, in a, in a society that we're in, it really shouldn't, we shouldn't feel like we're not safe. And we shouldn't be attacked, we shouldn't be abused. But it's something that I've grown up with. So I grew up on a council estate. And first time we sort of moved, we would have our window smashed. And we would have things thrown on my dad's car. But then you go away from home and you get drivers just shouting things at you. You get rocks thrown at you, you get eggs thrown at you. And this is sort of something I've experienced throughout, was that people just want, just attack, the attacking nature of it. But over the years it's been more verbal. And so whether it's in public transport, I've had drivers of public transport just sort of making me feel unsafe, and it's been reported, but then the companies just do nothing about it. And I've had random people just spit at you, at me. And so it's something that I've experienced quite a lot. And again, it's A) I'm a woman, I'm a visibly Muslim woman, so it makes me a really easy target. And the really frustrating part is it's more mainly by men. And it makes me just sort of like if you want to 'free' a Muslim woman why make her feel like she's nothing and why abuse her. What what? So that's something that I really struggle to get to the bottom of. But at the same time it become, when it comes to reporting cases, I've never reported a case, my parents have never reported, but the one time I did report a case was last year. And the system just completely failed. So I was like, you know what, if it happens again, I'm never going to report Islamophobia or any sort of attacks in public. You have the records of them. My, we've got video footage, and everything, but it still seems to be not enough. And it's always about proving, Oh did you say something? Did you instigate the attack? And it's like, I really would, I don't need this. So the systems that are in place just seem to fail at every hurdle and it's, it's just a shame. Yeah, really? It really is.
Steph Edusei
And it's interesting, isn't it that that approach of you must have done something wrong. Again, it has that, those echoes of the way that women are treated when something happens, it's the well what did you do to provoke that? And I had a really interesting conversation with somebody who is quite senior in an organisation, and they were saying they want to change that in the organisation. They want to move from this idea of you must have done something wrong. And do you have proof? And where's your evidence? To so what can we do about this? How can we change this behaviour? Instead of actually making the victim, um a better term, feel like they have to, they have to defend the attack that they've already...
Loujane Alasi
Yeah. So particularly with this case, and it was the first time, you know, it was a really busy space. I had my younger siblings with me. And luckily enough, we actually recorded the conversation and the attack, and sent it out to the police. And they were like, it doesn't show who started it. Like, what do you mean, it doesn't show who started it? Did you see anything before? We can't identify the person? Okay, cool. Where does that leave me? You know, and it's like, the whole the whole processes. Again, is it, who is it trying to protect and why, and why?
Steph Edusei
Yeah. And we'll probably come on to that thing of how systems are set up and in certain ways. Does anybody want to come in to this question? Because like, say, please, please let us know if you do. And just while we're waiting, in case anybody does, I think as well, that thing that you said, it's men that are doing the attacking. I think, yeah, often it is. But that's that layering, again, of misogyny, layered with racism. And also, there's that thing of well, actually do they think we're going to turn around and attack them physically? Whereas we're a safe, a safe bet to single out. But that, that that's a really good example of that, that layering that sectional, intersectionality that goes on, where they don't just attack us because we're female, they attack us because we're female, and we're Black or brown or, or whatever. So...
Jamie Conway
Sorry, Steph, I was just gonna say the system supports that, though doesn't it enables that behaviour because the response that Loujane has received is just abysmal. It to kind of have, it's almost like that asking for it approach, isn't it? It's well, what did you do? Did you start it? It's irrelevant how the conversation started, when you're presented with evidence that someone has been racially abused, then that, that is there, there is no justification in that regardless of behaviour prior. It's not tit for tat, it is this happened. And there are consequences to this. But there always seems to be an approach. And well, what did you do? What were you wearing? What were you saying? What were you doing? How did you engage with them? And that is relevant in this, which is really difficult in policing for people to understand, because there's always a reason why that they search for when actually, there needs to be an acceptance of what has happened.
Steph Edusei
Yeah, and actually, that reminds me quite a lot of the tone policing that goes on on social media. So my personal style is to be quite gentle, when I'm picking people up about their racism, sexism, homophobia, or whatever. And I tend to take a kind of a quite gentle and educational style, some people don't do that. And that's their personal style, and they can be more full on and, and more accusatory for want of a better term; I can't think of a, that's not a very good way of describing it, but they will be very full on and direct and not mince their words at all. I see those people all the time being told that the reason that they're getting the abuse is because of their tone. And if you just, if you weren't so aggressive, that lovely term, if you weren't so aggressive in the way that you raised this, then maybe people wouldn't do that. And what people seem to forget is the reason that they're commenting or raising the point is because they've already had the racism. It's not the other way around. So the fact that they're saying How dare you do this, is as a response to an attack. And how they choose to respond to that attack is perfectly legitimate. So yeah, that, that, you know, that tone policing that, that way of telling us how we should respond and how we should behave, happens all the time.
Jamie Conway
It's so pertinent within a lot of the work that we look at in terms of when we're looking at disciplinary grievance tribunals in the workplace, there is kind of this perception of how a person should react to experiencing an issue. And actually, their reaction is talked about more than what caused the reaction. And there seems to be a complete lack of understanding of the compounded effect of when people are experiencing constant microaggressions. There's a there's a video or an animation that's really kind of common, and it explains it as mosquito bites. And it's the mosquito bite effect around actually, one mosquito bite may not bother you, two or three can become quite irritating and itchy throughout the day. But actually, if you are constantly experiencing those mosquito bites, you're not going to respond in a way that is the norm, or the accepted way of this. And actually, what we tend to see is that people are more focused on dealing with the person's reaction, because that goes in the easier box. Because there's a set of standards, there's policy, there's procedure, that if you behave like this, then we can react like that. And actually, it's the confidence of people addressing the root causes the issues and having those brave conversations, it just gets put in the 'too difficult'. That's a bit uncomfortable. Ooh, what's the easy fix?
Steph Edusei
Now I can remember having it on a LinkedIn post, actually, where I was talking about exactly that, it was it was a microaggression. And I chose not to address it in the moment because, well, for a whole host of reasons. But I'd, that micro aggression had made me feel othered. And one of the main reasons I didn't address it in the moment was because then I would be othering myself even more. And when I raised this point, and I, you know, I didn't name anybody, I was very careful to keep things anonymous. And I said, you know, this is an example of a microaggression. And this, this was the result of it. And I was attacked on social media by some people who actually, I was really quite shocked by because their posts are all about equality. And, and why didn't I deal with it then? And what an aggressive stance I was taking in taking to LinkedIn. And I should have, I should have directly confronted the individual. Now I did actually speak to the individual some weeks later about it, and they were lovely. And they responded brilliantly to it. And they reflected on what had happened and said yes, actually, you're probably right, that probably is what went on. And I didn't realise it. And I'm going to really think about my interactions, because I wasn't aware that that was the thing that I did. And so I then went back as a follow up and said, This is how you respond to this. This is excellent, this, it really made me feel validated. Whereas all of the rubbish that went on in response to the post, really made me feel really attacked, and just furthered the othering that had already gone on.
Jamie Conway
But it's back to that expectation that it was you had done something isn't it Steph, it's around that the responsibility to fix that was with you. And they didn't it wasn't palatable, how you chose to fix that at that time. And that's the frustration because what you should have saw there is effective allyship, around people taking that forward or actually respect for what had happened. But what you saw was that you should have done this, you should have done that. And it's that's really nice, as an approach to problem solving, when you have psychological safety. But it's the lack of recognition of that not being there.
Steph Edusei
That's it. Right, let's move on to another card. So this is antiracist discussions. And this one's probably the most direct about antiracism. So what does not racist mean? And the follow up for that is why are so many people in invested in believing that they're not racist? Loujane do you want to go first on this one again?
Loujane Alasi
Yeah, that was a really hard question. I saw that. And I was like, this is sort of it's really hard. Because my first and yeah, my first instinct is just sort of think of it as a defence mechanism and sort of as a shield. So if somebody says something that is clearly racist, their natural instinct is to defend their reasoning behind it.
Steph Edusei
Yeah, I'm laughing. I'm just thinking if I'm not racist, but...I'm about to say something really?
Steph Edusei
Yeah, it is. And I think that's why people struggle with it so much, and why they'll go, but I'm not racist. I'm not racist. I'm not racist. It's like, yeah, but are you antiracist, and it's a, antiracist, I think, is a relatively new term that people are trying to get their heads around. Jamie, what about you? What do you think?
Loujane Alasi
Yeah. And it's like why? No, just stop, just stop before you continue, because clearly you know that there is something wrong with what you're about to say. But you just don't understand why it is. Or you don't understand the impact it's going to have on the person that you're speaking to, or the community that you're referring to. And it's also, it's not good enough to be not racist, we need to be antiracist. You know, if you can be comfortable in saying that you're not racist, then you're a bystander to racism, just allowing it to happen without addressing the issues, or allowing people just to continue with their ways. So I think, whether you're not racist, even if you're not racist, it's still not enough, you know, in, in the society that we're in, you need to be more than not racist, you need to be antiracist, you need to be able to hold people to account, to call out injustice, and inequality and to sort of make a difference. So I hope that answers it. But it is a really hard one.
Jamie Conway
Yeah, totally. And I love the way Ibram talks about it in his book around that. And I think, for me, the challenge I've had with some people is when they say, I'm not racist, I always say but for them before they can. And I say I say the but because you're about to say something. And I kind of lead that conversation to talk about the importance of, if it's a statement that you shouldn't have to say if you're really not, it should be evident in your words, your behaviour, and your approach. It isn't something that if you need to articulate it, it's almost, Why do you feel the need to say that? There's something that you're trying to prove here. And I think, for me, not racist is not bothered, which is worse. So I've talked about what you permit you promote. So if you're allowing this behaviour, you're validating it by saying, there's problem here. And that for me is where you move into antiracist where it needs to see action, it needs to see the what next, and I think I read his Ibrahm’s book quite a while ago, when it first came out. And now there's an updated version, which I do, it is on my to be read list. And one of the kinds of things that I really enjoyed around that is kind of how people, how it's fluid, that people can move. And it's almost like the people that will use the term "I'm not racist", they're so desperate to be able to wear that as a badge, when actually I think it's around moving from; antiracist isn't something that I think a lot of people can, can do easily all the time, because there's so much education that needs to take place. So it's moving from that. And I think it's when, particularly within the world of EDI that I work in, there's, there's a lot of because we deal with all of the protected characteristics, if you like and quite often will support so many different networks, there's a lot of pull, and you might have saw the saying around EDI it's not like pie, there's plenty of it to go around. But everyone perceives any focus, if you like on one, one area is being taken away from another. And I think sometimes it's around that when you're in these roles, there's only so much that you can do all of the time, and actually moving from antiracist been constantly driving that forward. The second that you put something down, if you like can sometimes be perceived as the, well it's not racist to put it down, but actually systematically, institutionally, are we letting this go? It needs to be a constant focus, and it needs to be bigger than one person if you like. And I think that's yeah, I think quite often individuals use the not racist, but I think policies and procedures like to badge themselves it's not racist, but don't look deep enough into that. And for me, I think, to see not racist, it's really translated into not enough, you're not doing enough, you're not bothered it's and to be indifferent is worse than to even think something whether it be on the positive or the negative, at least you have passion.
Steph Edusei
Yeah, and I've shared a link to a BBC bite size by John Amaechi. And I actually saw it just a week or so ago, about not racist and anti racist and it's a really good explanation of it. And what I love is when he says, if you're not a racist, somebody will say something racist in your presence, and you'll go away and then you and your group will sit, and you'll go, oh did you hear what they said ? Wasn't it terrible? Aren't they racist? If you're anti racist, you will go and you will confront that person, hopefully in the moment, but it's not always safe to do that. But you'll confront that person. And you will say no, what you did, what you said, was racist. And that's the difference. It's that it's that positive act, taking, positively taking action, rather than, as you said, Loujane, being a bystander, and kind of going ooh under your breath. And I think what we've seen over the last 40/50 years is the development of lots of people who go, Oh, isn't it terrible, but not enough people who will actually do something about that, and will actually be actively antiracist. And I can certainly think of a lot of occasions where racist things, incidents have happened and everybody shook their heads and said, Oh, it's terrible, but nobody's done anything. But as you said, Jamie, more often, it's when that racism is built into the system of what we do or where we live, or that type of thing. And when it's pointed out to people, they'll go, oh, yeah, that's terrible. But they don't actively do anything to change it. They just accept that it's terrible. They accept that five, women are five times more likely to die in childbirth, if they are Black. And if they're white, Oh, it's terrible. That's, that's terrible. But they do nothing about it.
Jamie Conway
Totally agree, Loujane. But do you not think that that actually, when people turn around and they'll say, for instance, that the figures that you've just mentioned there Steph, you'll have individuals in that area say, Oh, that's so terrible that happened, but I'm not racist. So they think that because they perceive themselves as not racist to operate in, in a system that actually disproportionately impacts people. They, it's almost like their personal view that they have of themselves, allows them to release any accountability. So it's kind of like, well, well, I don't feel like that. So it's not my problem. There's nothing within my gift to, to do to fix that. And actually, that's where the hunger needs to be. And that's where we get move into antiracist around these. This is what the data says, What are we gonna do about it? Because it's not enough for people to say, Well, I'm not racist, because the system that you're operating in, and the impact of your behaviour actually is creating that disproportionality. So what, what else are we going to do around that? It's the lack of accountability that comes with that. It's almost like, well, so what
Loujane Alasi
And that's the really sort of dangerous part. And that's the, you can be oblivious, and you can be sort of, you may not know, but it's when you know, that it's, the impact that it's going to have and not do anything that's in my opinion, that's way more dangerous than someone who may not know the impact of using certain words. But then for policies or individuals who know the implications of racism on people and still continue to go on as though it means nothing. That's, that's the scary, the scariest part of it all, and it's sort of we're seeing it now and in, in the world that we're living in is that people know, the danger of it. But for some, and for some reason, they just choose not to do anything, and it is a choice for them at this point in time. And that's, and that's not okay. And that really, we need to be doing more.
Loujane Alasi
It just happens, that's it, we've come to terms with it, we've got a name for it, but we just allow it to happen. It's not, it's not good enough,
Steph Edusei
or even carry on?
Loujane Alasi
Yeah, we just shouldn't take it and we shouldn't accept it. And I think this is why this sort of discussion, these sort of discussions are really important, because it just shows that, you know, we see it, we know what and we are going to hold people to account. I mean, it does take a lot. It does take someone who's confident enough to be able to speak up. But if we empower one another, eventually change will happen.
Steph Edusei
And I think perhaps slightly more. Well what at what I hear a lot now is, well, if we just stopped talking about this stuff, and we just stopped pointing out our differences, then racism would disappear. And it's that that you know what, no, because yes, I was born and brought up in Newcastle. I have a white mother. And I've been in predominantly white institutions all of my life. But I'm still different and I still have cultural differences. And you know what, they're really important to me, and they've made me who I am. They I can see them every day in the way that I interact with people in the way I work and all of that. So if you're just not going to pay any attention to that you denying me who I am. And you know what? People will still be racist. It doesn't stop just because we don't talk about it. It's like, you know, oh, well, if we stopped talking about gender, then sexism would disappear. No, because that's what it used to be like. And we have sexism. What a surprise.
Loujane Alasi
Yeah. As someone who, anyone who would say that clearly has no idea of what it's like to have lived 10, 20, 30, 50, 60 years ago, they have no idea what, how scary it was. So that's, that is coming from a place of privilege. You know, it's, whilst we may have a long way to go, we've come a long way as well. So it's anyone who says that needs to check, check their privilege?
Steph Edusei
Yeah, yeah, there's a very famous Black person, who has recently said something similar to that. And that's exactly the response that they're getting, is you need to recognise the privilege that you have now. And, and just realise that you, you do have that and, and they're, actually even with all of that privilege, they're still being discriminated against. They just don't see it. Yeah. So we've got a few minutes left. Sorry, Jamie, were you gonna speak then.
Jamie Conway
Yeah, I was just gonna say, I think for me, the people that want to stop the conversations, because they're not palatable to them, they don't feel comfortable to have those conversations. Because let's face it, there's not many people in any organisation I've worked and who are comfortable having these conversations. And one of the things we talked about is actually you need to get more comfortable with being uncomfortable. Nobody ever decides, right, okay, I want to go to the gym, and walks into that gym that first day, and throughout that process goes, this feels great. This is so wonderful. Change doesn't happen easily. It's not supposed to be a process that feels positive and great all along the way. It's supposed to be difficult. It's supposed to be challenging. And I think we have this expectation that if it doesn't feel comfortable, we'll just stop talking about it, it'll be fine. Because that's nice. I've heard what you've said, but we'll just move on, because we've got the real job to get on with here. There's, there's priorities that we need to do. And actually, it's not recognising that because there's an air of discomfort. And I think, for me, obviously in my role, I deal with all of the protected characteristics. And I think race is the most difficult conversation for people to have. It's certainly, we're not at a place where people can comfortably have those discussions in organisations that I've worked in.
Steph Edusei
Well we still have people do the whole thing of they don't like to seek to use the term Black. So they go and kind of mouth it as if it's something wrong, and dirty and rude. And it's kind of like, you know, what, just get over it. I, quite often people will say to me, well, Steph, you're Black. And I go, am I? Wow, I didn't realise! You know, because actually, it inserts that little bit of humour into things, which hopefully makes people feel more comfortable about talking about some of this stuff. But you're right, some of it's not comfortable. And you just have to accept that. And some of it is stuff that you've done. And you just have to accept that as well. And just don't do it again, learn from it. Don't do it again. It's when you keep repeating the same thing, even though you know, as you said to Jane, even though you know, that is wrong, that's discriminatory, that that's when it becomes a real problem.
Steph Edusei
I'm going to move on to next question now and I will just repeat, none of us are experts. So please, if you've got a point that you'd like to make these, kind of come on and make the point or ask a question. And I'm gonna come to you first on this one, Jamie.
Steph Edusei
So it's how our community and institutional spaces racialized. And have you ever entered a space where you were not part of the dominant racial group present? And how did that feel?
Jamie Conway
I think there's lots of ways that that happens. And I think for me, I have limited experience as to how that feels. But I know that within my role, we create a equality impact assessments. And that's something that people aren't comfortable with. But an equality, impact assessment is a way of assess, kind of understanding environments, policies, procedures, decisions, how they're disproportionately impacted groups. And when we start to do those people just automatically fill them out and go, no, not relevant, not relevant, not relevant. And for me, it's around kind of facilities. So if we look at what facilities are there to support people of different faiths, in terms of things and when we look at in terms of disability in terms of access to spaces, if we look at times that places are open, the actual physical location of places where it is where it's advertised, where it's promoted, all of those things can really kind of determine who accesses or how easy it is to access the space. And that's taken away the human element of behaviour and people, out of those spaces, and I think that's the biggest kind of factor if you like. But I think in terms of entering a space where I wasn't part of the dominant racial group, this is something that obviously, because of my whiteness, it isn't something that is frequently happened. And I know we talked about I went to visit an African community group, doing some engagement when I worked in a previous organisation. And I walked in and their, their experience, it was a time when I worked for the ambulance service, and their experience of the ambulance service was negative in their mind, and they weren't keen to see me. And when I walked through the doors, em everyone had a seat, there was no seat made for me. So I perched myself on a stack of mats that were there to talk to people, everybody, were given drinks. There were homemade doughnuts that were passed around. And everyone was really smiley, and I was very much on the peripheral of the group. And I was made to feel very not welcome. And it was the first time that I'd been in a group situation where there was just me, who was white. And that actually, there was that feeling. And I was really, really conscious of it. And we got into the conversations. And it became really evident as to why people didn't have that view, a positive view of the services that I was there to represent. And that was absolutely understandable. And for me, I had to go away and really understand what had happened. And I looked into individual incident, and I found resolution with the group. And that that wasn't just go away, make a phone call, come back and say taa-daa, I've fixed it, there was real work that went on there. And there were it was over a really long period of time that I engaged with that group. And we had a conversation. And they said to me, we wanted you to feel how we feel; it was all deliberate. And it was evident to me that it was deliberate. And they said to me, we wanted you to feel that because it was important, it was our way of lashing out almost. And we wanted you to experience what it feels like to walk into a room and be the only person like you, we want you to feel that actually that expectation of just walking into a room and being smiley and nice and doing all of the things that society has taught you in terms of how to get on with people still doesn't work. We wanted you to feel powerless like we do. And for me, it was I'm so grateful for that experience. Because people tell me about those things, but experiencing it and feeling it is something totally different. And it was it was a really defining experience for me in terms of I get it, I get it. And it was a one off. But it was. And that for me is even more powerful because it happens so frequently. And it was really, yeah, it was really powerful to be on the other side of that, and it wasn't pleasant. But it was I took from it. A lot of learning. And I think we then had a really positive relationship. And they actually made me doughnuts, especially for the next time that I went. So I'd like to think that we turned things around. But I do think that there's a lot of my colleagues who wouldn't have responded in that way. And I think it's around actually being open to, to that. And I think, yeah,
Steph Edusei
Yeah, Loujane forgive me, but we're a short on time, so I'm not going to come to you on this one, because I want to get to one more. But I'm just going to share, and it's something that Jamie and I have discussed. So there's a, I'm going to try and keep it as anonymous as possible. There were a group of young people who went abroad to West Africa, and went into a very big open market, an open air market, very big, very bustling. And some years later, one of those young people lodged a complaint and said that they had felt very uncomfortable in the market, because people kept calling out at them. And, and then kind of, you know, trying to attract their attention. Now I've been to this place and I've been to that market. And I know what they'll have been doing, they'll have been going I'll use the term Bruni, which basically means a Obruni means foreigner. And they'll have been calling, Hello, hello. So it wasn't even come and buy this. It was, it's that greeting that was going on. And reflecting on it, I was sad in two ways. I was sad when it initially happened that that young person hadn't said this is how I felt in the market. Because to me, there was an excellent learning experience as why. Why was it you felt uncomfortable? Because actually, everybody was being friendly. Everybody was calling out because you were an obviously white person in a place full of black people. So what was it that made you feel uncomfortable? Was it actually your underlying biases that made you feel unsafe because nothing anybody was doing there was unsafe? Or kind of would make you feel unsafe if everybody had been white. My second regret was later on, so many years later, when that then adulted raise those concerns, is that that question wasn't put to them then. Because I think, again, that learning opportunity has gone. They can't reflect on what was going through my mind at the time, that made me think I wasn't safe. When actually people were saying, Hello, welcome, welcome. What was it that made me feel unsafe. And I think as a Black woman, I've been in many circumstances, I'm sure you have Loujane, and some of the other people on the call, where it's not, that's not been the case, where we haven't been in that privileged position.
Steph Edusei
So very last thing very quickly, I'm going to really quickly say, if you've enjoyed this, and you're listening to the podcast, or watching online, please like and subscribe, we do have more events coming up. So just keep an eye on Eventbrite on Black All Year, you can follow that and you'll be notified when we have an event. But the last question, and thank you both for your participation today. But I want to end on something positive. So what would be one tangible way that you can contribute to an antiracist future? So either you, or advice for others? What would be one tangible thing that people can do? Jamie, do you want to go first?
Jamie Conway
Yeah, I'll keep it short and sweet. For me, something I try to ask myself consistently is, am I doing enough? And I think people don't spend enough time kind of reflecting on what it is that they do. And part of that what you can do is part of what you know, what you learn, your knowledge. And I think people get too complacent in what they know. And it needs to be constant, we need to constantly be educating ourselves, having conversations with real life, humans, not just hiding behind the data. And "Well I've got this one friend", it's around really constantly checking yourself and really putting yourself in environments that don't feel comfortable, and really reflecting on what is it that that I can do, what was in my gift to do? And really striving for that and not being afraid to be uncomfortable?
Steph Edusei
Thank you. Loujane.
Loujane Alasi
For me, it's go out there and meet communities, listen to what they have to say and take on board what they have to say. That's the big one that just Yeah, show up and be there with communities.
Steph Edusei
Yeah, and I would add, just get curious. It's, which I think is kind of both those two together. To me, there's a real excitement in learning, and in finding out about different people, because we're actually once you start finding about people and cultures, they're fascinating, and they're exciting. And, and actually, sometimes they're just, you know, you want to pinch bits. That's another question altogether about appropriation. But you know, there is that just go out there and enjoy them. Melanie, I saw you had your hands up there.
Melanie Ndzinga
I was just gonna say really, what you've all said really. Get informed about what, you know, be aware of what's going on around you and think about how that might be impacting on, on people who are being targeted by that. Be informed about what's happening and challenge people. It's, you know, you can, you can check. If it's a dangerous situation, you could, you know, like, see somebody being attacked on a bus or something, you could just go and sit next to them, make up a name. Hello, Frank. I saw your mother the other day. How are you? And just stepping between.
Steph Edusei
Thank you, Melanie. So we're gonna wrap it up that we could have gone on for another hour, I'm sure. But hopefully you found that really useful. Thank you, Jamie. Thank you, Loujane. It's been really interesting discussing it with you and thank you to everybody who's joined us today. Bye.
