Black All Year - Mind Your Language

When it comes to race and ethnicity, language is powerful.
Fear of getting it wrong is used as a reason to not talk about race at all.
Getting it wrong can have terrible consequences for all involved.
It can uplift and it can destroy.

Join Ranjana Bell and Steph Edusei to discuss language in the context of race and ethnicity.

Ranjana Bell MBE is Chair of The Road to Recovery Trust, Newcastle upon Tyne, a charity that supports people on their journey of recovery from addictions which won the Asian Business Connexions 2021 3rd Sector Award.

In January 2014 she was awarded an MBE for her work with the police and BME communities in Tyne and Wear and Northumberland.

Ranjana has over 40 years’ experience in the field of Equality and Diversity. She has been a teacher for children with special needs; a  local authority Race Equality Officer; an Equal Opportunities Officer for a university; a Non-Executive Director for a design company and has held the position of Director for her own company, rba Equality & Diversity since 1998.

She has been on many Boards and committees and including Chair of the Northumbria Police Strategic Independent Advisory Group (currently); former Co-Chair of the NE CPS Scrutiny Panel for Racist and Religious Hate Crime; PCC Independent Member for Police Misconduct Panels (currently), Chair of the NE Counter Terrorism Advisory Group (currently) and Co-Chair of Young People in Conversation (currently). She was a government appointed Commissioner for the Women’s National Commission for 4 years and has been a Lay Member of Employment Tribunals since 1999. She is a founder member of The Angelou Centre and The National Black Police Association.

In March 2022, she was named as The Volunteer of the Year by the National British Association of Women in Policing (BAWP).

Ranjana is part of the We Are Here – Inspirational Women permanent exhibition in Newcastle upon Tyne’s Discovery Museum, honouring exceptional Black and minoritised women who enrich north east communities in medicine, healthcare, science, education, activism and politics.

LinkedIn:

Steph Edusei LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/steph-edusei/
Steph Edusei Instagram https://www.instagram.com/stephedusei/

Original music by Wayne C McDonald, #ActorSlashDJ
www.facebook.com/waynecmcdonald
www.mixcloud.com/waynecmcdonald
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Transcript

0:09

Hello, and welcome everyone to this Black All Year event. If you missed the previous events, they are available on YouTube and as a podcast. And it's been a little while since we've had one of these events, so it would be a great idea to go back and catch up on what we've done in the past. If you are watching or listening to this after the event, then please like or subscribe as it makes sure you don't miss any material. And it helps others to find the content. So as it's been a little while since we did our last event, I thought I would talk to you about why Black All Year. So every October, I'm invited to talk to a range of audiences about the equality, diversity and inclusion and about being a Black female leader. And whilst I'm always happy to do this, I got really frustrated that everyone wants to talk about race in October, Black History Month in the UK, but then when quiet all year round, because after all, we are Black all year round. I kept saying that we should do year round events, but nothing happened. And being the person that does, I decided that I should make it happen and Black All Year was born. So I hope that through the events will highlight the issues challenges, as well as the achievements and experiences of Black people who are the minoritised global majority, and a little more on that I'm sure later on. So, I am absolutely delighted to be able to introduce our guest today. Ranjana, you and I have been circulating in the same environments for quite a while but we never seem to have actually met in person or not properly, so it'd be great to have a cuppa one day and meet properly. But Ranjana Bell is a, and I'm sorry for this term, veteran of the battle for equity. She has held and continues to hold senior positions in a number of organisations such as chair of the Road to Recovery trust, chair of the Northumbria Police Strategic Independent Advisory Group, PCC Independent Member for police misconduct panels, a government appointed Commissioner for the Women's National Commission and has been a lay member of employment tribunals since 1999. She was awarded an MBE for her work with the police and BME communities in Tyne and Wear in Northumberland in 2014, and has been director of her own company rba equality, equality and diversity since 1998. And Ranjana is also part of the We Are Here Inspirational Women permanent exhibition in Newcastle upon times Discovery Museum, which honours exceptional Black and minoritised women who enrich northeast communities in medicine, healthcare, science, education, activism and politics. So welcome Ranjana. Thank you for that very honourable introduction for me. Well, you know, you are quite an amazing individual. And perhaps start by telling us a little bit about yourself, Ranjana, aside from all of the accolades, who are you? Oh, I think well, first of all, I want to say that I'm honoured to be here, and although I can't see any of your faces, because on my screen, it appears most of your cameras are off, so I'm assuming that you're still sitting there and listening, even though I can't see you, apart from from you. And I, what can I say about me? I, I was thinking, I've been thinking a lot recently because I've been asked to kind of explain my journey to why I I'm who I am and the way I am. And I think it's it has to be in the context of the four year old child that travelled on a ship with my mum and my brother, who was six, to England, to find ourselves in a situation where my dad could not find accommodation to include us in [unintelligable] and we were sent off to Essex, to a place called Billericay, where rich families, and they were white, who had big houses because they were wealthy, and they'd seen an opportunity to make money on the back of this and set themselves up as unregulated care homes for taking all these lost children. And my brother and I joined a hole where there were dormitories of children who couldn't stay with their parents, until parents could sort out accommodation. And for me, I realised as, as I'm at the age, I am I'm now which is 72 (I try not to remember). But that has deeply affected me. And I, I think, by that abandonment experience that I had, and then when we did return to live with mum and dad, seeing the way that they were treated in the 1950s, because it was 1955, that I couldn't bear what I saw happening to my mum, in particular, and my need to stop it, I think, set the seeds for me to be what I described myself as a big gob, and I can't help it. And actually, I'm quite proud of it now. Because when people accuse me, or people use that terminology of the "woke culture is silencing everybody", it's never going to silence me, because I'm a great, I'm proud of being woke, because it means that I'm aware, and I will not be silenced. And I think I have the privilege of age, and experience and wisdom that enables me to know that you can try and knock it back from me. And if I know I'm right, I will, I will have it out and continue that. So that's me really. But in relation to what we're going to talk about today, one of the things that I've realised is, although I've lived here, most of my life, from four years old to 72, I've always felt that I didn't quite belong anywhere. I've referred to myself, as the floating generation. Because my mum and dad, particularly my dad, he wanted so much to be English, that we lost our Indian identity as children. Mum and dad didn't, because they'd lived there, but we were very young and we, I am so ashamed to admit, I don't speak Hindi, Punjabi, or do my only language is English and a bit of Spanish now, because I go there quite a lot. But I, I'm a tourist in India, I'm not accepted in the UK in the way that I should be. And I still feel kind of floating, and I call it stateless. I don't quite know where I belong. And I struggle with that. And what breaks my heart is that I hear the fourth generation of young Black people, and I'm using Black collectively, for anyone that's not white, and has had experience of racism due to the colour of their skin, that they say the same thing; that they don't know who they are or where they fit. And identity is so important to our mental wellbeing that I feel deeply, deeply saddened and heartbroken that we haven't been able to create a world, or a country anyway, that makes people feel they belong. So that's where I'm at. And that's about me, and I'm happy to talk as you'll soon find out, you have to shut me up. And I think I think your experience I mean, I'm I'm a little bit younger than you not not a huge amount, but I think thatexperienced and that experience of our parents of wanting us to fit in and to not stand out and therefore make it wanting us to be able to speak the best English we possibly could. So not passing on the language of their, their language is actually really common. I know a lot of people certainly of my age, who, who can't speak the language of their parents or, you know, one or other of their parents, because there was this real emphasis on you must speak English. Because if you can't speak good English, then that's another thing to kind of bully you for. And the ironic thing now is that we know that that children who have multiple languages spoken, actually pick up English really, really well. The more language you learn, the better you are at language. But yeah, I can really identify with what you were saying there about that, that feeling of being a little bit lost. And I saw a really interesting conversation just last week about particularly for Black people of African or Afro Caribbean descent, of that, where where is this place called Black? Because actually, a lot of people say I'm Indian, or Pakistani, or I'm British, or I'm..., but actually we say we're Black. And that again, that makes us fairly stateless, because there isn't a country called Black. There isn't a country called Africa which comes as a surprise to some people. So actually, you know that that sense of identity I think I'd feel myself really blessed because I do call myself a Geordie and that to me, that's that's kind of my my root being in an Ashanti and being a Geordie. But it can be really difficult. And I suppose all of this is touching on this thing of language and how language is used and the power and you do a lot of work with the police around this don't you. But yeah, I think this debate at the moment is is very, very live, especially since Black Lives Matter, and and people questioning their involvement in that and how we relate to that. I don't know how many of you will know but the College of Policing and the Police Chief's Council has told all Police Services, they have to implement a race action plan. And there is a National Race Action Plan. And within that action plan, the Chair and the board have that called the Independent Scrutiny and Oversight Board is chaired by a barrister Black woman called Abimbola Johnson. And between the College of Policing and the Police Chief's Council and the Chair, Abimbola, the focus of that race action plan is purely focused on Black people. And there was a huge debate, like what are they talking about when they say Black people. And it turns out the Race Action Plan focus for policing is purely about people of African, Caribbean, or who are Black as in colour of skin. That has caused a massive debate and a massive fallout. Because it it's almost creating a hierarchy of who who experiences the worst racism. And there are a lot of police forces who are saying that we don't actually want to go down that road of just focusing on using Black in that way. But that's because my generation have used the term Black since the 1970s, as a collective inclusive term, as I said before, for anyone that has experienced racism, discrimination due to the colour of their skin, or their faith, and I'm happiest using that terminology. But that does not go went down well, in any other understanding. So if it would help, Stephanie, I can explain the history of the language that led us to where where we're at. Now, that'd be really useful. Thank you. And because I can't see anybody's faces, or just a few people's faces nodding, I'm assuming that you're okay with that. So I can give you that, that bit of information. So if you think about the history of how, certainly how I came to be here, that we're the immigrants of the 1950s. And we came, because after the war, there were, there were so many males, soldiers who had injuries or died, that there were a lot of jobs that couldn't be filled. So the government went to recruit from the colonies, to ask us all to come to England to do what I consider to be some of the most, I used to call them dirty jobs till somebody pointed out to me that I was being disrespectful to those occupations, but I wasn't being disrespectful to the people was just that that's what they were expected to do. Like, be on buses, bus conductors, or, or work for British Railways and things like that, the jobs that no one else wanted to do. And in the same way that disabled people who were coming back from the war had one particular job secured for them, which was to be a lift attendant, that tells you the thinking that was going on in government at that time. So we were referred to I'm sure some of you will still be aware of this, the coloured people, because there were those of us coming from what we call South Asia. And there were those coming from the Caribbean. And we've heard a lot more about Windrush over the last few years. So we know there was mass immigration from from the colonies through Windrush and the ship, the ship was called Windrush, that was the ship that brought people over, and we were all referred to as the coloured people. And we were referring to ourselves as the coloured, well, my mum and dad were I was only four years old. So it was the coloured people, and then in America, there was a bit of a revolution going on around terminology because they too, were referring to themselves as the coloured people, not the people of colour, but coloured people. And that still tends to be used by that generation. But there was that those of us that grew up through flower power and, and Woodstock, that's me, that we used to do, and all the music and everything that went around that the revolution was Black power. So any of you who have read the history would know that this symbol was a very, very powerful symbol of Black power, and unity. And there was some very, very powerful speakers and eminent people who spoke out against the racism against Black people. And we had Black power, Black Panthers, Black is beautiful, all that terminology. So that was happening in America. And as things do, by the late 60s, early 70s, we in the UK, we're talking about that terminology, and we were adopting it, it not in the way that the US had done, but as a collective term for ourselves. And in the 70s, there was a rise of organisations that would call themselves Black workers support group, Black, Black advisors, Black, whatever they wanted to do. But by the 70s, the government really didn't like the use of the term Black here being used in that way. And they resisted it. And they, they were actually very disrespectful to groups that came together under that banner. And by the early 80s, when there was quite a big revolution and I'll talk about Newcastle, because in the early 80s, we had our first Black women's group, we had our first Black youth movement, we had our first Black arts group, we had our first Black women's refuge. But if we use the term Black associated with any of those, we couldn't get any funding because we were seen as being really, really radical, and, and extremists. So what we did, which I'm still laugh about now, we didn't change our Terms of Reference,so what we were there for what we were doing, we just changed the names to Saheli, Chandni, Angelou Centre, which is craftily put in all these other names, and then we could get some money. The one group that got the worst treatment, particularly by Newcastle City Council at that time, was a Black lesbian group that wanted£50 for some, some self defence training for their members,and the council refused to give it to them. So we had homophobia and race, and probably misogyny as well kicking in and they didn't get their money. We, even with our very crafty names, if we applied to the city council for money, we were told to go away because if we went to the women's issues subcommittee, they said. "oh no, we don't deal with Black groups", sent us to the race equality subcommittee. The race equality subcommittee said, "no you're a women's group go back to the women's group". So we had all of this political stuff going on. So strangely, at that time, the government decided that we could no longer use the term in any of, certainly in engaging with government and we had to be referred to as ethnic minorities. And so for the most of the 70, what most of the 80s we were referred to as ethnic minorities. And there were an Well we were the ethnics, right? So then there was a kind of awful lot of people who in my opinion, disrespected us by reaction to even ethnic minorities because what was referring to us as ethnics, which to me sounded like some happening were they are minorities, people that were disease And actually still happens today. It still happens today white ethnic minorities, Polish people, Romanian people, Greek that people will refer to ethics. And then if people if people kind of wonder where that that people were saying, "Well, I'm an ethnic minority", so and I am being cynical here, but the civil servants who were sitting in white were like, "Oh, we don't mean them. We actually mean the ones whose colour's not white. So what other terminology can we come up with", so they came up with, with minority ethnic communities. So we we became minority ethnic communities. And at that time, I was working for Newcastle City Council. And I had to laugh, because I had to reprint everything to change from ethnic minorities to to minority ethnic. It didn't change anything in practice, but they changed it. Then there was a census. And the census, I can't remember which year that was now, but the census showed that people like us wanted to call ourselves Black. So the government then introduced B M E, Black and minority, ethnic. kind of kickback from the Asian community came, you might want So we had BME, that lasted until the maybe the 2000 period where it was being debated because a lot of Asian people, particularly the older generation were shouting their mouths off saying, "I'm not Black. I'm Asian". So then we have Black, Asian and minority ethnic. to go back on the session that we did, which was on anti-Blackness and Colourism because we explain where a lot of that came from. And it's one of the reasons why I've always hated BAME. Because it was that to me that was introducing even more racism and colorism into a term that wasn't great anyway. Yeah, and on that, which I think is really important, something else you need to know about me. Certainly, over the last year, I've been to a lot of conferences and meetings where people have been what we call sharing their experiences of their lived experience. And one of the things that I've concluded from that, that we as Black people, and again, I'm using it collectively need to look at ourselves, specifically, for how we treat each other. And that, that colourism and that hierarchy and the way that we oppress each other. And the reason I say that is the person who made me realise was I heard Asim Rafiq talking at a conference this year, about his experience of blowing the whistle on the the Cricket Board, and he says his biggest allies have been his white friends, and not the Asian people that he would have expected to support him in that situation. And it's made me reflect on what we have a responsibility to do. It's easy to point the finger and we need to challenge racism. But we need to take a hard look at ourselves. And do what you're saying about addressing that, Stephanie, because it's long overdue. So going back to BAME, the whole fallout of BAME, what's slipping in now is people of colour, because that's an American term in trying to be softer, about being inclusive. And to be honest, and what was the expression you used earlier, Stephanie? Global majority The global majority, which I think is very, very interesting, and makes a very important statement that Black people are the global majority. So that's to me, that's a challenging description that I love. And that's why I love it. I mean, the first time that I that I saw that it gave me and I kind of said, "Oh hang on global majority". And it gave me such a sense of power, if I'm honest. And I've said this before on these events. But the thought process that went through for me is that actually, we are the global majority. There are more non-White people on this planet, then they're all white people. So we are in the majority, but what we what has happened is we our needs, our rights have been minoritised. So we are a minoritised global majority. And I think that really accurately describes what has happened to us. We're not a minority, but we have been minoritised we've been made to be less. And then I kind of sat and I thought okay, so if people of colour are a minoritised global majority, what does that make white people? Well, they're the global minority. Now for a lot of white people and have seen the reaction when I say a global minority, you can see them going I'm not a minority, but but actually they are. But they have been prioritised. So that's a prioritised global minority. And again, I think that's a really accurate description of what they are. And one of the reasons I was really keen to do this session on language is because to me, words do have such power. They can change the way somebody thinks and feels in a snap. And I think when you think about being minoritised, it's something that's done to you in the same way that being prioritised is. So that's why I really like those terms. But it's a bit of a mouthful, I will have said that. I mean, like, you might also see the term minoritised ethnic communities as well. And I mean, there's a whole mixture of things going on. And if you're sitting there thinking, this is all too much, you know, how am I supposed to, to learn to understand any of this? Let's put this into context. Nobody's, I have, no I'll start again, I have never met anyone who said, someone spoke to me to ask what language I want myself to be described as. So let's get this clear. This is imposed language, apart from the global majority, it's all imposed language, and Black because that we chose that, we have been shut down and silenced every time we've tried to come up with something that would be acceptable to us. So we what we end up doing...I apologise, does it look like I'm sitting in a dark room? It's alright, we can we can still see you. The problem that we have, and I guess it will apply to all of us really, in our professional worlds, is that we're often applying for funding, and we're often talking to partners, and other organisations. So we have to kind of find a common language that we can use with each other. And unfortunately, we have to play the game. If we're putting in a funding bid and we have to play the game for how the funders are using that terminology. So I accept that and understand that. So if you think about it, how often do people get traumatised in thinking, "oh I'm going to meet a group of people, and I might say the wrong thing. I don't know how they'll describe themselves", and we get that trauma. Now what I'd say to you is that, please try not to do that. You you, if you use a piece of language, whichever one you choose for your organisation's and yourselves, explain how you're using it, which is what I do. And then if someone says to me, "well, I don't like that", I apologise. And I say, "For the purpose of today, what would you like me to use them to make you feel included in my presentation?" But apart from that, I can't think of an occasion where I'm sitting with people, where I'm constantly thinking, what, how do they describe themselves? How are they? What are they going to say what? What? We've got obsessed with the wrong issue. We don't need to think about that. We refer to each other by our names. And we show the respect on that basis. If there is a need to get a descriptive way of describing something, check it out with somebody. I can see Kainat sitting there and I I don't feel obsessed with thinking that how will Kainat describe yourself, What if I say what I say people of colour and she gets upset about that? And what am I going to do? I just, I think we've been we've been deliberately traumatised by that. And I'm, I would like you to not feel that and to walk into a room and be very mindful that some people won't like some of the language, but you can deal with it. And my analogy for that is, if I was going to speak to a group of deaf people, and asked each individual in my description, I might say their deaf, and how they would describe themselves? I might get 20 different descriptions of how they describe themselves. But I don't get, I would hate to be obsessed with thinking, "Well, what language am I going to use?" I try and avoid it and talk to them as people. And if I need to I'll explain it. Yeah, I find that sometimes that that, that over focus and over anxiety around getting it wrong, actually makes people make some absolutely horrendous mistakes. And they say things that you would never say in normal conversation, but because they're so focused on "Oh, I mustn't say the wrong thing. I wasn't say the wrong thing". I think that brains just kind of shut down. And I've certainly been the recipient of a couple of times. And one of the ones that really stuck out to me was when somebody couldn't work out what my first which My name is, was my first name. Was it Stephanie? Or was it Edusei? And it's kind of, I've never come across anybody with a surname Stephanie, in 50 nearly 51 years, I've never met a Stephanie surname. So what they did was, and I did go back to them afterwards and say, I think what happened was, you saw my surname, thought, I don't know how to pronounce that. And you went into this internal narrative of, "oh, no, I'm going to get this wrong, I'm going to offend. It's a foreign name, it's strange". And then didn't register that Stephanie, is a very simple name that is used a lot in this country, they kind of assumed that my first name must be something really complicated. And that type of thing happens a lot that people get themselves into a bigger mess, because they don't just calm down. And don't just ask, you know, if you're really worried about something, just ask, I wonder whether that comes from this other-ness people think that because we are other, are different, that they couldn't ask what they would ask somebody if they looked the same as them? I don't know. What do you think about that Ranjana? I think I do believe that the majority of people want to get it right, that people don't want to offend. And I think we've had a whole how many years 40 years of being terrorised by the notion of political correctness. Now by being woke, and if anybody corrects anybody, you're this, you're this it called the silence culture, and, and the Yeah. And you're, and you're anti woke and all of this stuff, Cancel culture all it does is traumatise people. And on top of that, we don't get enough time for Safe Space conversations like, well, we're not having a conversation, I'm just talking at you, but we, we don't get enough space, to have safe space conversations where we can feel free to say, I just don't understand it, I need you to help me. And it's all even in organisations, the public sector, the voluntary sector, nobody's got time to give to this, to actually doing it. So all credit to you Stephanie for setting this up, because this is more time than even police officers get with their online, 90 minutes of E&D training, you know, all of that kind of stuff, is what we're up against. I think the other thing is, we're having a huge debate about pronouns. And if, you know, a lot of people just don't understand the importance of that, and what that means. I think we need to have some sensible conversations around it. And we also the trans discussion that is so toxic, is going on, which again, we need to have those discussions about, what does it all mean? How does it impact on my organisation? How does it impact on me? How does it impact on the world, because these are the live debates that are going on right now that are interfering with people's lives. And we're talking life and death in some of these scenarios. So, you know, I, what I do is I actively encourage executives, to start the journey by having safe space conversations with themselves first to do their leadership correctly. Because there's just not enough talking going on now. And on that note should we let the others speak. I was gonna say I was gonna say, if anybody's got any questions or comments, you can either pop them in the chat or raise your hand and we'll come to you. And I think that thing about having that safe space conversation, I think there's something about what I think it works, it works on all all sides, but like the two sides, but but actually for, for me as a Black person, if somebody says or does something wrong to come at them from a place of kindness first. So I'm going to correct you but I'm going to assume that you've done that through a lack of knowledge and not through malice. But equally when I do that, and I that's what I try to do, what I'm sometimes met with is real defensiveness, which becomes attack. So actually, if somebody corrects you, and corrects you in a way that comes from I just wants to tell you that that's not acceptable and, and, you know, just for future reference they're not attacking you trying to get rid of that ego, and that defensiveness and listen and just apologise. I think that thing of just, like you said earlier, just say I'm really sorry, what's a better way of expressing that? And learn from it? Because if not, we get into this this battle. So has anybody got any kind of questions that they'd like to ask or points that they'd like to make? While while people are thinking and plucking up courage and things, interestingly, the other thing around BAME or Black, Asian minority ethnic, is this idea of clubbing everybody together. And then there's, I think it's easy for institutions and companies to then think, Oh, well, they're all the same. And as you and I know, we are all very different. There's huge differences in in in ethnicities and cultures, and to say, Oh, well, the BAME onepeople, as if we're all one country, and we all eat and think and talk the same is really flawed when it comes to a lot of these things. Kainat I see you've got your hand up there. Hi. Oh, can't actually hear you Kainat... no, still can't hear you...we'll come back to you. Anybody else? Is that me? Have I silenced you with my continual big gob talking. You know, I wish I Sara or Sarah has got a hand up as well. Em just to say that, that thing you said about not really feeling like you fit in anywhere, I think I can definitely, because I'm a first generation. But my mum wanted me to speak Farsi. So I still speak Farsi, I can't read or write it, unfortunately. But whenever I visit Iran, I don't feel fully Iranian. And then in the UK, I don't really fully feel fully British, and then the kind of thing will, Where do I sit in? And I wonder if there is a new community of us, of people who, I don't know if it's like the diasporic community, and where we are kind of just, I don't know, maybe the bridges between these two cultures? But yeah, it's kind of Yeah, I think that the thing of the said about being the floater generation is quite a feel bit stateless in it. So yeah, thanks for sharing that. And I can definitely echo what you're saying was my personal experiences. If I was in the room with you, I'd give you a big hug. Even I'd have to ask your permission before I gave you a big hug, of course, but I would like to, because it really breaks my heart that your generation, you're younger than my looks like you're I'm guessing you're younger than my grandchildren. And I hate would hate, I hate to think of them not knowing where they belong. And I, if you take this to an extreme, and it isn't extreme, when people in in White House in Whitehall not White House, in Whitehall are trying to work out why Black kids are killing Black kids and why stabbings and, and all those horrendous things that are happening is that they need to look at how that generation, fourth generation still don't feel they belong and fit. They are being damaged by the exclusion that they are experiencing. I'm not condoning anything that they do, but there, is there are some things that need to be fixed and healed, and they'renot happening. And I just, I just Sara, I just feel I feel sad that we have to have that conversation. Kainat do you want to try speaking again, because I have had a little fiddle around so you might be able to unmute. No, no. So Kainat , it's actually said regarding safe space conversations. "What can organisations do to create safe spaces for calling colleagues in around language? And what could that look like?" And then that I touched on how we can become targeted when we address our colleagues on language and that can feel jarring. So how can we be enabled to feel safer to raise those conversations? Would you like me to Yes, please. Kainat, I have, well, I attempt this in a safe space conversation, people have to sign up to it and there are very clear ground rules around how we relate to each other within that conversation. And so far, all I can say is that it's managed, I've been able to facilitate and manage that. Because unless people feel able to say that thing that we might not want to hear, because often I think,"Oh, are they really saying that?", but I wouldn't display that, because it's coming from a good place saying, "I just don't understand, can you help me?". So there's a the rules of mutual respect, but for saying those things, being open to challenge, and agreeing to disagree, if we can't reach a consensus about that with respect. Now, that's how I run my safe space conversations. And the group itself, determine the issues that they want to raise. It's not me, as I'm tending to do today, throwing stuff at you all the time. It's what is the most important thing for you to address? So for example, what Stephanie and you have been discussing in the chat, you know, you could say, you know, why, I don't understand why people get defensive when I, when I say, Do you realise the impact of that? Do you realise how that makes me feel? You know, those kinds of things, that that safe space conversation should be managed and facilitated to be a positive thing, not an attack. I don't know if that helps, but can nod your head or shake it? And I think I think there is something for those of us that are facilitating that conversation, because as you say, I've been in very similar positions, and people have said something and you just want to go [angry noise]. But actually, when you're in that place, and you've given people permission to say things and not to worry about whether it's going to offend or be politically correct, you have to then respond appropriately, you can't jump down their throats and tell them that they're wrong. And it again, it comes from that position of having to be really kind. And I think, you know, that that idea of being kind and being supportive, and explaining to people and helping them to learn. That's not to say that I think that we should be doing all of the work, not all of the labour; very much the contrary, but actually there is an element of if people don't know where to start, or if people, if people can't ask these questions, then they're never going to get to the place that we're in. I know, I've made a huge amount of mistakes around language and around ethnicity in the past. And that's okay, because I learn and each time I make a mistake, I learn and hopefully I don't repeat the mistake, or if I do, I go I'm really sorry, that was a slip of the tongue, I know it was wrong. And I correct myself. So I think that that if there's one thing that people are going to take away from today, I think it is that, just apologise. And ask, I think that was a really good point that you made about apologise and ask. So around language, and I'm really interested when you're doing some of this work, what are some of the questions and points that other people have come up with? And when you do some of this work around language? Well, it's always interesting, because the safe space conversations are not about just about race. And this, I'll just slip in this other thing of my experience. I talk a lot about equality, diversity and inclusion. But the group, I don't know, and my question, whether because they see me and the colour of my skin, and assume my race, which they often think I'm Pakistani, but I'm actually Indian, you know, have these confusions as well. They, everybody just wants to talk about race. And I'm thinking at the moment, there are some other big issues that need to be talked about. And I have to direct the group back into talking on the wider basis when it's not just a session on race. And so I've concluded that it's possibly because of me, but and how will they see me, but it could be that race is still the biggest issue for them. So questions about Black Lives Matter. What will I call people? You know, and the big question, why do we us always make everything about race? When they have, that's interesting, yes. Things like, you know, it's what about me? White Lives Matter? What is White privilege? I don't have privilege I'm a poor person. You know, those are the kinds of things around race that we're talking about. Yeah. And it's really interesting, isn't it, because both you and I have particular ethnicities, and we're women. We could also be lesbian, or bisexual, we could actually be trans, we could be a number we could be, we could have a disability. But there is this thing of well you're Black. So that's what you are, and don't step outside of that and don't be anything else because that's who you are. I often find that if you're white, you're allowed to be multiple things. But if you're Black, you're Black. And that lies within our communities and externally as well, I think that that happens. But I find exactly the same thing, actually, that when, when the word diversity particularly is raised, it's brings to people's minds two things I would say, ethnicity, and gender. So when you talk about having a diverse board, people will go, "Oh, we've got a lot of women, but most of us are White, all of us are White", and I go, "How many of you have a disability? How many of you are young? How many of you are...?", because actually, that's all part of diversity. But there is a real tendency to think that the only thing about diversity is ethnicity, and/or gender. And I think, you know, I've recently been involved with some women's organisations in the police, you know, like the, the women's support group and me. And the, for me, the difficulty I have about attending a women's group is I often find myself in the minority. And I have to justify everything I say. Whereas when I'm alongside other women like myself, who've done the journey, in different ways that we've done the journey, I don't have to constantly explain what I'm feeling and what I'm saying. And I find that very difficult. And to be fair to the White women who desperately want to learn, they, sometimes they ask to come into a forum where we haven't got the time to be their, the learners for you know, the teachers and the learners, that's a different forum for me, because often, the reason we get together is because we have very, very specific painful journeys to talk. And I suppose that that's part of the discussion that's going on around the trans debate about safe spaces for women. And I think we need safe spaces for us to be able to share our journeys and our experiences. But it's very complex. And I think, you know, that people think there's a right and wrong answer to these things. There isn't, it's a massive grey area, because we as individuals, with our own lived experiences with our own journeys with our own feelings have an absolute right to have those validated. And we cannot, we should never be shut down from have having those experiences and those things. I think if you were joining today, and hoping that Ranjana was gonna give you a nice long list of the words that you can use, and the words that you shouldn't use, then you're gonna be sorely disappointed. But I think hopefully, particularly at the beginning, when you were talking about the history of that language, then hopefully, that's helped people to understand why some words are not acceptable. And the thing I would also say is that language, of course evolves. So, you know, back in the 70s, term coloured was seen as a polite way of saying things because Black was rude. And actually, amongst, nowadays, it is not, and there are very clear reasons for that. And we'll just very quickly run through some terms coloured is not acceptable. Black generally is acceptable. People of colour is probably okay. But there are, you know, and I'm going to, apologies for using these terms, but these are terms that I see quite often on social media and people will say that is not racist. The term Paki, sorry, is not acceptable. The word Chinky sorry, is not acceptable and the amount of people that will say and so if say, I'm gonna get a Chinese meal tonight, will use that term and think there's nothing wrong with it. And to me, they are pretty much on par with the N word, which I'm definitely not going to use. So but people still think that terms like that are ok. Gypo equally, not acceptable. But, but there are a whole range of other terms that people will use and it does very much depend on the individuals, whether that's insulting or not. I know that somebody said in the chat I think it was Sara said in the chat about the fact that in your organisation use the term, BAME. And that that's accepted. I personally don't like it. And I've kind of said, why I don't like it. In the organisation that I'm an employee of, I use a term, or we use the term of ethnically minoritised. And because we've been minority, where people are being minoritized, because of their ethnicity, and that's a term that we use. And it's a term that quite a few voluntary sector organisations in Newcastle have chosen to use. It's still got the flaw of it clubs everybody who's not White into into one box, but it just, it's a little bit more accurate a description. But I think it comes back to that thing that you said; ask, ask people what how they want to be described. My sister, exactly the same ethnicity as meat does not like being described as Black. She has some very negative connotations with the word Black. And she doesn't like being, using that word. She never used that term to describe herself, whereas I don't have those negative connotations. And I do I have seen in the chat, Stephanie, the question about coloured being used in southern Africa. We can't influence that, really. But we can influence how we understand the term and how we use it. And I absolutely agree that it's time to talk about colourism amongst us ourselves and take a hard look at ourselves and how we relate to each other. And I absolutely support that. And I just want to add another term to the ones that you were raising, that are still here half caste? Oh God, yes! I am going to explain this because it's only in later life that I realised that what these were the origins of these terms come from when the British occupied India, and the the, the, the males, set up families and had children with Indian women, they were referred to by their caste as half castes. And that was what the Indians used to. It was a derogatory term to say that that child was a half caste, it was never a polite term ever. And those communities themselves who still exist today in India, called themselves Anglo Indians, not half caste, because it was a derogatory term. And they refer to themselves as Anglo Indians. And I don't know if you've seen it, or been there or watched any programmes. There are communities of little England, where the Anglo Indian families, who have gone on for generations live an English lifestyle, the predominantly English lifestyle in India. So that's how they they've adopted themselves. So over here, people would know that, okay, then they use it in a way. And again, there's lots of discussions there's mixed race, people have dual heritage, mixed heritage, Yeah, I personally preferred mixed heritage because actually, I could be three or four different heritage's or cultures coming together. I think dual is very specific, and probably incorrect a lot times and racist somebody said, actually, that's why I use ethnicity rather than race. Because we are one race but we are different ethnicities within that so I don't say mixed race either because then actually, what am I? Am I mixed alien with human up be quite exciting. I wouldn't mind doing that. But but you know, I'm not. So thank you so much Ranjana. That is almost our hour up. It's been a really, really interesting chat with you like say we will have to meet in person have a proper, proper catch up. As I said, this has been recorded and will be shared as a recording and as a podcast. So if you're watching this on YouTube, or listen to the podcast, please like and subscribe to make sure you see our future events. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for your wisdom Ranjana, I'm making you sound very old and you look about my age; it's sickening. You know the truth now. But thank you so much. Thank you, everybody for joining us. We will be having another event in about a month's time. But as I've popped in the chat, as well if there are any suggestions of topics that you'd like us to cover, please let me know because I'm really keen to make sure that this conversation keeps going. And equally if you know of any fantastic speakers who can speak on those topics, that would be even better. So thank you everybody and take care